Base GT track day limits

[smithhead]

20 years ago I had a Porsche that I took to the track once (Willow Springs). I probably had performance pads and decent fluid but other than that didn't do anything and didn't have any issues. My wife got me an exotic car track experience last year and I got the bug again. I was looking for another Porsche but ended up with a Mustang. Only to find out that the base GT isn't very suitable for the track. I had hoped to get the performance pack but couldn't find a car with it in my price range.

I've read through a lot of posts and have some understanding of the limitations but a few questions. Note that I am a big chicken and an extreme novice, and I don't want to screw up my car. With this in mind I did a track day a couple weeks ago. Just one hour, a beginner session where you go out one at a time and have to come in after each lap and get in line again, although some times there was no line. I am just trying to learn the car and the cornering limits, and the track, so didn't go too fast. Half the track has fast sweepers and the other half several tight turns. I only did two aggressive laps, the rest of the time I only had to brake briefly and therefore didn't have any issues at all. I did more laps than anyone in the session and it was still a lot of fun.

With that in mine, I'm wondering what I can do with some easy improvements, and when I need to stop. Sorry for the length of this post.

1) The #1 issue seems to be brake cooling. My car has the newer rotors with the vents on the inside, so presumably will be better? I haven't seen a lot of data on this yet. My hope was that I could just do better pads and maybe add some ducting. I would upgrade the brakes but I really wanted to use my 18" wheels for my winter setup.

2) I guess the brake fluid temp is more dependent on the temperature of the brakes than the actual braking pressure, so if the rotors stay cooler that should help. According to the manual it has a 260C boiling point which is the equivalent of DOT5 even though it's DOT4. Does the car give a warning for brake fluid temp?

3) How much warning will I get when fade sets in? Will I notice a degradation before it goes completely?

4) I just ran in Sport mode and forgot that stability control would be applying brakes. As a novice is it still best to turn that off to save the brakes? It's not clear to me if Track mode turns if off or if I still have to do it manually.

5) Sounds like I will get a warning for the differential fluid in time to cool it down. I plan to add heat shielding.

6) Cooling - what is cylinder head temperature? Water? I see they don't have an oil temperature gauge. What is the safe temperature? The ambient temp was 50F, and my regular temp gauge never moved. But the cylinder head temperature did a lot; it was 180 on the open road, 200 while on the track, and went up to 215+ after I came in to the pits. It would quickly go back down when I started driving again.

7) So the main question is, if I drive more aggressively will I need to cool down after every lap? I certainly don't mind the beginner sessions right now, don't have to worry about someone on my tail. Of course as the weather gets warmer everything gets worse, so maybe I can't do track days in the summer?

I also read about changing oil, brakes, brake fluid, and differential fluid every time out, although I realize that's for more aggressive track days with more track time. I see some guidelines for oil and diff fluid in the manual, but not brake fluid. It sounds like they go through stock pads and rotors really quickly. But changing pads between street and track seems odd, as pads have to bed in to the rotors right?

Thanks for your help. I'm doing another beginner day this weekend, but may do two one hour sessions, an hour apart.

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[ice445]

For track driving, you're easier on your brakes if you just brake HARD and late. Like, don't modulate and brake like you would on the street, that heats them up faster. The base brakes aren't ideal, but they do stop the car pretty well, and for a novice doing 20 minute sessions or less, should hold up fine. You'll notice lesser braking performance as they get hot, they won't just give out on you instantly.

As far as driving mode, do whatever is comfortable. I recommend turning everything off so you can really learn the car, but there's no shame in leaving some assists on. As far as them hurting the brakes, they really shouldn't unless you get super sideways in a corner, the yaw angle has to be pretty substantial before it will start trying to use braking to reign the car in.

Base cars have no differential temp sensor, so you'll have to just pray there. But once again, the 20 min or less sessions really won't overheat the diff here in most cases. You can try putting in a 75W90 synthetic with limited slip additive if you want a little bit extra protection. The advanced guys run 75w140.

Cylinder head temp is an issue on all of these cars except the GT350. Your safe limit is 240, once you hit that, back off. The car will start pulling timing and power at that point. Your oil temps will also be really high. Using a high quality 5W30 is a good idea. Sounds like you took it pretty easy if you never got over 210.

So yeah, the simple answer is that the base car isn't completely terrible on track, you'll just hit the limits faster. Good fluids help. There are also some upgrades you can do if you end up getting the bug and want to track a lot more often. I put a PP radiator in my car which was pretty straightforward. As far as what fluids to change after a track day, engine oil for sure. The trans and diff you can probably get away with for now at that skill level, but by the 10th track outing I'd change them.

 

[VisceralSyn]

I started doing track days in my base 2017 Mustang GT about 2 years ago.

1. After 4 track days with the base brakes, something broke every time, brake master cylinder twice, warped all 4 rotors, etc... After adding the Performance Pack Brembo's, I highly recommend going ahead and making that upgrade. The stopping power is day and night better.

2. My 2017 does not have a brake fluid temp warning, but if i smell it after a 20 minute session...

3. This i cannot answer

4. 2017 Base mustang GT does not have a track mode, I've run in sport, and with TC/ABS disabled. Personally didn't notice a huge difference in either mode, but i may not have been pushing super hard either.

5. same here as well 2017 base mustang GT does not have a diff fluid sensor.

6. Also I've not installed the performance pack radiator either, I was hitting under 220 after a 20 minute session on track, in the middle of summer in the midsouth, where temps can hit 92+ F with 80% humidity.

 

[smithhead]

For track driving, you're easier on your brakes if you just brake HARD and late. Like, don't modulate and brake like you would on the street, that heats them up faster.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking and doing so far.

The base brakes aren't ideal, but they do stop the car pretty well, and for a novice doing 20 minute sessions or less, should hold up fine. You'll notice lesser braking performance as they get hot, they won't just give out on you instantly.

Ok good, thanks.

As far as driving mode, do whatever is comfortable. I recommend turning everything off so you can really learn the car, but there's no shame in leaving some assists on. As far as them hurting the brakes, they really shouldn't unless you get super sideways in a corner, the yaw angle has to be pretty substantial before it will start trying to use braking to reign the car in.

I will probably try everything off while I'm still going slow to better learn it, but good to know.

Base cars have no differential temp sensor, so you'll have to just pray there. But once again, the 20 min or less sessions really won't overheat the diff here in most cases. You can try putting in a 75W90 synthetic with limited slip additive if you want a little bit extra protection. The advanced guys run 75w140.

Oh rats, good to know. Looks like they have 75W-85 stock? I will probably put the heat shield on the exhaust, and eventually when it's time to change the fluid put something a little better in and maybe consider a finned differential cover.

Cylinder head temp is an issue on all of these cars except the GT350. Your safe limit is 240, once you hit that, back off. The car will start pulling timing and power at that point. Your oil temps will also be really high. Using a high quality 5W30 is a good idea. Sounds like you took it pretty easy if you never got over 210.

Ok thanks. Looks like they come with 5W-30 synthetic blend stock, so switching to full synthetic might be good, but I don't need to go with a higher weight in the summer?

So yeah, the simple answer is that the base car isn't completely terrible on track, you'll just hit the limits faster. Good fluids help. There are also some upgrades you can do if you end up getting the bug and want to track a lot more often. I put a PP radiator in my car which was pretty straightforward. As far as what fluids to change after a track day, engine oil for sure. The trans and diff you can probably get away with for now at that skill level, but by the 10th track outing I'd change them.

Ok thanks. I asked the dealer about the performance pack radiator, and they said it was really hard and really expensive. But I think I saw the part on Ford's site and it wasn't too bad. Did you do it yourself or have it done?

Thanks for all the info. Of course all this is dependent on how fast I go and to some extent on the weather. I don't know if I'll do many track days in the summer, especially since the time isn't convenient for me, but we'll see. I'm bummed I missed so many perfect track days this winter. I will probably never become a hardcore track junkie, I just can't afford it. But if I can have a little fun it would be great.

 

[smithhead]

Thanks for your comments.

1. After 4 track days with the base brakes, something broke every time, brake master cylinder twice, warped all 4 rotors, etc... After adding the Performance Pack Brembo's, I highly recommend going ahead and making that upgrade. The stopping power is day and night better.

Yikes, thanks.

2. My 2017 does not have a brake fluid temp warning, but if i smell it after a 20 minute session...

I need to learn how to distinguish between pad fade and fluid boiling. And what smell is what.

6. Also I've not installed the performance pack radiator either, I was hitting under 220 after a 20 minute session on track, in the middle of summer in the midsouth, where temps can hit 92+ F with 80% humidity.

Ok good to know.

 

[Hack]

I would say what mods the car needs to handle some track use depends a lot on how fast you drive. If you want to be able to push the car hard for 20 minutes several times a day in temperatures above 70F, you need a lot of improvements to make it happen. A Mach or GT350 with coolers might be the best way to go if it's important to you.

If you drive the car fast, I doubt it will be able to handle an hour at a time.

However, everything you are doing is the right way. Definitely better brake fluid is important, probably better pads. If the brake pedal starts getting soft, slow down and let the car cool for a few laps.

I could have sworn the diff has a temperature sensor. I believe it will get hot even with exhaust heat shielding if you drive the car hard.

One thing I would say is if you get a heat warning, it's better to continue driving but more slowly and let the car's systems cool down rather than stopping too quickly.

 

[VisceralSyn]

I need to learn how to distinguish between pad fade and fluid boiling. And what smell is what.
Ok good to know.

Honestly, I hope you do not get to smell fluid boiling like I did. I did not trailer my car to the track, drove home with wobbly brakes. If you smell boiling brake fluid, you'll know it, and may be done for the day.

 

[NeverSatisfied]

In my opinion, the brakes and cooling systems are undersized on a base GT even when running at ~70% of the car's capabilities. The automatic adds another level of heat generation.

You'll probably get away with it for a bit, but if you keep doing track days, your skillset typically advances quickly to where you are taxing the cooling systems and brakes.

Doesn't mean it's a bad car--it just needs a handful of upgrades. The questions you'll need to answer... Are you OK cutting track days short as you deal with cooling issues? Are you sensitive enough to brake fade to back off before your brake pedal hits the floor on a high speed corner entry?

The answer to these will help guide you on whether you want to be proactive or reactive with upgrades

 

[NightmareMoon]

1) Not much data yet. It should help a little.

2) There is no monitor or dash light for brake fluid condition, no. You'll feel it in the pedal.

3) *it depends*. When I've boiled fluid in the past I was pretty clueless until going for the brakes in a braking zone and having not nearly as much as I expected, which was scary, but all you have to do is go easy for a few turns and the fluid condition will partially recover. On this instance, I was able to finish the track day - just using a little sympathy for the car and braking earlier and softer, instead of hard and super late like a madman. I was doing a pretty good job of keeping up with a GT3 on slicks up until that point. (GT w/ Brembos tho).

IDK what the previous posters was smoking, its braking HARD and late which is riskier than slower and softer. If you're a bit softer and earlier the peak temps won't be quite so high. Slowing the car from X speed to Y generates Z amount of thermal energy, no matter how long that takes. Its that speed change that determines how much heat is generated.

By braking over more time, you have more time to dissipate some of that heat. Brake hard and short and that heat can peak above the boiling point of the fluid.

Anyway, follow your instructor's guidance on braking technique and you'll be fine. As a novice, your normal ideas for 'hard' or 'soft' braking are probably way off .

4) No, run stability control if that's what you're used to. Turning that off may cause even worse problems (off track excursions or spins) if you are not used to catching slides without it's help.

5) You get a warning when it gets too hot, and the car wants you to cool the diff down, yes.

6) Cylinder heads may get up to 240, IIRC. Don't worry too much about it.

7) Generally you don't have to stop sessions early to cool down, but it depends on a lot of details, ambient temps being a big one.

Most novice drivers won't be driving hard enough to really stress the car's cooling systems that much. There are exceptions of course, but most novices won't be getting on the gas hard and early enough at high enough speeds to really push the motor or brakes.

If you have a soft brake pedal afterwards, then flush or bleed your brake fluid after the day. If you know your brake fluid is old and likely needs flushing, then do that in prep before you get on track. At some point you'll exceed what your base brakes pads and brake fluid can handle, but I wouldn't assume you'll necessarily do that your first few times out.

There are insurance companies that sell you some trackday insurace for your car for the day. If you're worried, that's an option.

 

[WCRookie99]

20 years ago I had a Porsche that I took to the track once (Willow Springs). I probably had performance pads and decent fluid but other than that didn't do anything and didn't have any issues. My wife got me an exotic car track experience last year and I got the bug again. I was looking for another Porsche but ended up with a Mustang. Only to find out that the base GT isn't very suitable for the track. I had hoped to get the performance pack but couldn't find a car with it in my price range.

I've read through a lot of posts and have some understanding of the limitations but a few questions. Note that I am a big chicken and an extreme novice, and I don't want to screw up my car. With this in mind I did a track day a couple weeks ago. Just one hour, a beginner session where you go out one at a time and have to come in after each lap and get in line again, although some times there was no line. I am just trying to learn the car and the cornering limits, and the track, so didn't go too fast. Half the track has fast sweepers and the other half several tight turns. I only did two aggressive laps, the rest of the time I only had to brake briefly and therefore didn't have any issues at all. I did more laps than anyone in the session and it was still a lot of fun.

With that in mine, I'm wondering what I can do with some easy improvements, and when I need to stop. Sorry for the length of this post.

1) The #1 issue seems to be brake cooling. My car has the newer rotors with the vents on the inside, so presumably will be better? I haven't seen a lot of data on this yet. My hope was that I could just do better pads and maybe add some ducting. I would upgrade the brakes but I really wanted to use my 18" wheels for my winter setup.

2) I guess the brake fluid temp is more dependent on the temperature of the brakes than the actual braking pressure, so if the rotors stay cooler that should help. According to the manual it has a 260C boiling point which is the equivalent of DOT5 even though it's DOT4. Does the car give a warning for brake fluid temp?

3) How much warning will I get when fade sets in? Will I notice a degradation before it goes completely?

4) I just ran in Sport mode and forgot that stability control would be applying brakes. As a novice is it still best to turn that off to save the brakes? It's not clear to me if Track mode turns if off or if I still have to do it manually.

5) Sounds like I will get a warning for the differential fluid in time to cool it down. I plan to add heat shielding.

6) Cooling - what is cylinder head temperature? Water? I see they don't have an oil temperature gauge. What is the safe temperature? The ambient temp was 50F, and my regular temp gauge never moved. But the cylinder head temperature did a lot; it was 180 on the open road, 200 while on the track, and went up to 215+ after I came in to the pits. It would quickly go back down when I started driving again.

7) So the main question is, if I drive more aggressively will I need to cool down after every lap? I certainly don't mind the beginner sessions right now, don't have to worry about someone on my tail. Of course as the weather gets warmer everything gets worse, so maybe I can't do track days in the summer?

I also read about changing oil, brakes, brake fluid, and differential fluid every time out, although I realize that's for more aggressive track days with more track time. I see some guidelines for oil and diff fluid in the manual, but not brake fluid. It sounds like they go through stock pads and rotors really quickly. But changing pads between street and track seems odd, as pads have to bed in to the rotors right?

Thanks for your help. I'm doing another beginner day this weekend, but may do two one hour sessions, an hour apart.

After reading your post, I just couldn't walk away not saying anything. So before I start I want to apologize in advance if anything I a say is hurtful as I really don't mean to be personal.

Everyone starts somewhere and your writing this post gives me plenty of re-enforcement that you have a good head on your shoulders. This is for the 99% of people who didn't post this thread.

DON'T get on the track or behind the wheel unless you have a safe vehicle with proper prep work and this COST MONEY. period. Every weekend, one person (at least) crashes bad and most of the time it's someone driving over their head OR someone who has no clue.

Cars today are super fast and relatively cheap to buy, speeds are high at the track so, Brake Fluid, Tires, lug nuts, no fluid leaks, items being removed from the interior, floor mat's removed, tire pressures, Belts, situational awareness on and at the track are so important.

Best way to learn car control is in a huge parking lot covered with snow/ice and all traction control turned off. If you don't live in a cold climate, take a trip to Minnesota in the winter before jumping on any track, that's your first tip.

#1 Really scares me that (someone) would even know how to install any brake cooling properly! Learning how to brake properly is #1. Otherwise you'll fade the brakes regardless of any fluid and cooling ducts. And yes when the brakes fade, you normally have ZERO warning and you're backwards in the guardrail.

Proper braking is press super hard when approaching a corner and let OFF the brake pedal as you get closer to the corner. The total opposite of how you drive on the street. Learn this first.

#2. Mustangs are too heavy and require the best brake fluid out there or you will crash. Castrol SRF $78/bottle is the best. Now be careful not to buy it on sale for $68, why because it's 2-3 years old and looses it's stopping power. The master brake cylinder in normal Mustangs are junk and and the ABS is even worse. If you ever get going faster you need to be aware it can fail and cause you to crash. So buying a cheap car is a bad option. (I did't even get into how to bleed the brakes properly or if you should get stainless steel brake lines)

#3. You probably have one corner warning. (see video post #67 of this thread, in this case no warning)

#4 I would keep it on as a novice, until it annoys you.

#5. Diff cooler will be mandatory as you get faster but hope you sell the car before that as it's not a safe track car.

#6. So the radiator is too small for prolonged track use. see #5.

#7. See #5.

As for your final thoughts, as you get more track time, changing fluids are cheap compared to Engines/Transmissions/Rear ends.

a. Engine oil every 4-6hrs of track time.
b. Transmissions every 3 track weekends (but remember the Trans is a weak link and will fail)
c. Rear end if it has a Torsen rear end once a Season if you don't have one, you need to put one in.

Get a Coach vs buying any go-fast parts for your car.

Hope this helps, most of all buddy up with the guys who have done it a long time, because even if they're wrong, they know more then you and will keep you alive.


Drive Safe

 

[smithhead]

I would say what mods the car needs to handle some track use depends a lot on how fast you drive. If you want to be able to push the car hard for 20 minutes several times a day in temperatures above 70F, you need a lot of improvements to make it happen. A Mach or GT350 with coolers might be the best way to go if it's important to you.

If you drive the car fast, I doubt it will be able to handle an hour at a time.

However, everything you are doing is the right way. Definitely better brake fluid is important, probably better pads. If the brake pedal starts getting soft, slow down and let the car cool for a few laps.

I could have sworn the diff has a temperature sensor. I believe it will get hot even with exhaust heat shielding if you drive the car hard.

One thing I would say is if you get a heat warning, it's better to continue driving but more slowly and let the car's systems cool down rather than stopping too quickly.

Thank you. At this point I am stuck with what I have, save possibly upgrading the brakes, so will have to limit my track time accordingly. I will be grateful for what I can get. I don't have the time for much anyway. But I will certainly take breaks as soon as I know I'm near the limits, and yes, keep driving.

Everything I've read here says the exhaust heat shielding helps a lot. I know the serious guys put a separate cooler on, but I doubt I would get good enough to need that. Knowing when that's an issue though is worrisome.

 

[smithhead]

Honestly, I hope you do not get to smell fluid boiling like I did. I did not trailer my car to the track, drove home with wobbly brakes. If you smell boiling brake fluid, you'll know it, and may be done for the day.

Ok thanks, hopefully I won't get to that point!

 

[smithhead]

In my opinion, the brakes and cooling systems are undersized on a base GT even when running at ~70% of the car's capabilities. The automatic adds another level of heat generation.

You'll probably get away with it for a bit, but if you keep doing track days, your skillset typically advances quickly to where you are taxing the cooling systems and brakes.

Doesn't mean it's a bad car--it just needs a handful of upgrades. The questions you'll need to answer... Are you OK cutting track days short as you deal with cooling issues? Are you sensitive enough to brake fade to back off before your brake pedal hits the floor on a high speed corner entry?

The answer to these will help guide you on whether you want to be proactive or reactive with upgrades

Thanks. I am trying to work up to the limits slowly so I can learn where they are before it becomes a serious problem. Hopefully soon I'll know how much I want to pursue this. Fortunately this track is actually very forgiving, very few spots where there are barriers, but I still don't want to go off.

 

[smithhead]

2) There is no monitor or dash light for brake fluid condition, no. You'll feel it in the pedal.

3) *it depends*. When I've boiled fluid in the past I was pretty clueless until going for the brakes in a braking zone and having not nearly as much as I expected, which was scary, but all you have to do is go easy for a few turns and the fluid condition will partially recover. On this instance, I was able to finish the track day - just using a little sympathy for the car and braking earlier and softer, instead of hard and super late like a madman.

At least I know to be watchful of this, hopefully it won't catch me off guard.

IDK what the previous posters was smoking, its braking HARD and late which is riskier than slower and softer. If you're a bit softer and earlier the peak temps won't be quite so high. Slowing the car from X speed to Y generates Z amount of thermal energy, no matter how long that takes. Its that speed change that determines how much heat is generated.

By braking over more time, you have more time to dissipate some of that heat. Brake hard and short and that heat can peak above the boiling point of the fluid.

I certainly understand that the amount of energy is the same, and spreading it out should give it more time to dissipate. How does this compare to driving down a mountain though, where they tell you not to brake longer and gentler, but to repeatedly brake harder and let off?

Doesn't really matter yet though, as I'm currently braking both softly and quickly, as I don't have to scrub of much speed. I'm following the method of an old Porsche friend who had a measly 924S yet often beat 911 Turbos -- I asked him how and he said he never braked. I'm pretending I don't have any more power than he did. But someday I'll want to speed up of course.

Anyway, follow your instructor's guidance on braking technique and you'll be fine. As a novice, your normal ideas for 'hard' or 'soft' braking are probably way off .

Unfortunately there are no instructors for these track days, and no one else allowed in the car, these are just open track days. With the Porsche club it was certainly nice to have an instructor, except he told me to go way faster than I was comfortable with. With it and the Ferrari I drove (also with an instructor) I was braking as hard as possible, but those cars were designed for it.

4) No, run stability control if that's what you're used to. Turning that off may cause even worse problems (off track excursions or spins) if you are not used to catching slides without it's help.

Ok thanks. I have some experience in catching slides but it's been a while. I'll give this some thought.

5) You get a warning when it gets too hot, and the car wants you to cool the diff down, yes.

6) Cylinder heads may get up to 240, IIRC. Don't worry too much about it.

7) Generally you don't have to stop sessions early to cool down, but it depends on a lot of details, ambient temps being a big one.

Most novice drivers won't be driving hard enough to really stress the car's cooling systems that much. There are exceptions of course, but most novices won't be getting on the gas hard and early enough at high enough speeds to really push the motor or brakes.

If you have a soft brake pedal afterwards, then flush or bleed your brake fluid after the day. If you know your brake fluid is old and likely needs flushing, then do that in prep before you get on track. At some point you'll exceed what your base brakes pads and brake fluid can handle, but I wouldn't assume you'll necessarily do that your first few times out.

Thanks. I have a ways to go before I do I think. But I want to know the warning signs.

There are insurance companies that sell you some trackday insurace for your car for the day. If you're worried, that's an option.

Yeah I checked on and it was a fortune. If I start pushing it I'll consider it.

My own wisdom says I should do autocross first, they have that there too. I know it's a better way to learn the limits, but I'm worried about knocking over cones and holding up the line of experts. In some ways it seems like it would be harder on the car but I guess not. I did one in my Audi S4 which was also really front heavy and didn't like it.

 

[Dave2013M3]

For track driving, you're easier on your brakes if you just brake HARD and late. Like, don't modulate and brake like you would on the street, that heats them up faster. The base brakes aren't ideal, but they do stop the car pretty well, and for a novice doing 20 minute sessions or less, should hold up fine. You'll notice lesser braking performance as they get hot, they won't just give out on you instantly.

As far as driving mode, do whatever is comfortable. I recommend turning everything off so you can really learn the car, but there's no shame in leaving some assists on. As far as them hurting the brakes, they really shouldn't unless you get super sideways in a corner, the yaw angle has to be pretty substantial before it will start trying to use braking to reign the car in.

Base cars have no differential temp sensor, so you'll have to just pray there. But once again, the 20 min or less sessions really won't overheat the diff here in most cases. You can try putting in a 75W90 synthetic with limited slip additive if you want a little bit extra protection. The advanced guys run 75w140.

Cylinder head temp is an issue on all of these cars except the GT350. Your safe limit is 240, once you hit that, back off. The car will start pulling timing and power at that point. Your oil temps will also be really high. Using a high quality 5W30 is a good idea. Sounds like you took it pretty easy if you never got over 210.

So yeah, the simple answer is that the base car isn't completely terrible on track, you'll just hit the limits faster. Good fluids help. There are also some upgrades you can do if you end up getting the bug and want to track a lot more often. I put a PP radiator in my car which was pretty straightforward. As far as what fluids to change after a track day, engine oil for sure. The trans and diff you can probably get away with for now at that skill level, but by the 10th track outing I'd change them.

Well a base 300a car does have diffy temp if you get a PP1/2 car.

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