A10 PP1 vs PP2

[DickR]

In 10th doing around 45-50 on level road, start to go uphill a bit it will start to slow down despite giving mild pedal to stay at speed. It won't downshift to 9th until it slows down to about 42 unless I give it good amount of pedal pressure. This is with shifter in D, normal mode. It's a pain in the ass. It's like the torque converter lock-up won't let go. My 06 GT would downshift with just light pedal in the same situation. I know it's for gas mileage, but it's annoying and could use some fine tuning - less pedal effort to downshift out of lock-up would be nice.

Interesting. I'll do some more testing to see how my perception of what it is doing compares to what you've observed. I'm comparing to our 97 GT with 4 speed automatic and my previous 15 GT PP manual, 2001 GT manual, 2012 GT automatic, and the 18 is behaving in the range I would expect. I've driven/owned cars which were either too anxious to downshift (rentals) or too reluctant to downshift (1984 Datsun 200 SX) and have been impressed with previous and current Mustang GT's in comparison.

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[Silver Bullitt]

Sorry, you can ask her yourself if that clutch is slipping some.
How can you have no idea? Surely you jest.
She knows how to drive a manual, and there is some clutch slip, not her blowing the shift or breakn tires loose dumping into gear.

Every clutch slips some as it engages the flywheel, but if the clutch was slipping as bad as you made it sound where she is throttling back to get it to engage, it wouldn't have been able to keep making those pulls. If the clutch is slipping bad, rpm's will go up not down. Go back and watch it again. That is a traction issue, not a clutch issue. She is feathering the throttle to get traction.

Watch at 6:54. Best indicator of all. Watch her hand on the wheel go back and forth as it breaks loose and she lets off. No way that is from the clutch not holding.

 

[Rash]

Interesting. I'll do some more testing to see how my perception of what it is doing compares to what you've observed. I'm comparing to our 97 GT with 4 speed automatic and my previous 15 GT PP manual, 2001 GT manual, 2012 GT automatic, and the 18 is behaving in the range I would expect. I've driven/owned cars which were either too anxious to downshift (rentals) or too reluctant to downshift (1984 Datsun 200 SX) and have been impressed with previous and current Mustang GT's in comparison.

Just drove home from work - did it twice. Both times maintaining 50-53 mph in 10th. Start going uphill, give it more pedal to try to maintain speed, still slowing down, more pedal, down to 45. Finally at 43 it downshifts. Once I start giving more pedal to maintain speed, it should either do so or downshift, not keep slowing down. I shouldn’t have to mash the pedal to downshift.

 

[DickR]

Just drove home from work - did it twice. Both times maintaining 50-53 mph in 10th. Start going uphill, give it more pedal to try to maintain speed, still slowing down, more pedal, down to 45. Finally at 43 it downshifts. Once I start giving more pedal to maintain speed, it should either do so or downshift, not keep slowing down. I shouldn’t have to mash the pedal to downshift.

I agree. That seems strange unless the hill is steeper than I'm assuming.

Since we both live in the Triangle, what road and location is this and in which direction? If it isn't too far from me (I'm just north of RDU) I might get a chance to give it a try with mine. Also, is yours a standard GT vs PP and if so which rear axle ratio? Mine's a PP with 3.55's.

 

[Rash]

I agree. That seems strange unless the hill is steeper than I'm assuming.

Since we both live in the Triangle, what road and location is this and in which direction? If it isn't too far from me (I'm just north of RDU) I might get a chance to give it a try with mine. Also, is yours a standard GT vs PP and if so which rear axle ratio? Mine's a PP with 3.55's.

A couple places on Hwy 751, O’Kelly Chapel Road - both out toward Durham so prob a bit out of your way. Any road with a gradual incline will do.

 

[DickR]

A couple places on Hwy 751, O’Kelly Chapel Road - both out toward Durham so prob a bit out of your way. Any road with a gradual incline will do.

I probably won't get the opportunity to wander out that way anytime soon but since you say it is only a gradual incline I've driven on plenty of those at that speed range with no issues.

What rear axle ratio do you have? If 3.15 that may explain a big part of the reason why yours needs to shift since my 10th is slightly shorter than a 3.15 gear car's 9th. Plus most of my experience in the last couple of months is with 35 series tires which make my effective 10th gear another 4 percent "shorter".

This could make a big difference at very low revs. It doesn't explain the reluctance to downshift however. I wonder if the PP cars have a different shift calibration?

Also, are you running premium gas? If not then there could be ignition timing reductions that hurt low rpm torque.

Finally, what was your previous automatic and how did it handle this type of grade?

FYI I'm going to be driving through Asheville soon on I 40. It will be interesting to see how my car handles the steeper grades at freeway speeds. Revs will be a bit higher which will help but some of the grades are steeper. I'm sure if it starts to hunt, especially if traffic, rain, and/or my wife's comfort level require dropping below the speed limit on the steeper grades with "sharper" curves, I'll simply use S for a more aggressive calibration, with or without paddle control as needed. The 15 GT PP manual typically needed 5th in below speed limit driving in that area of I 40.

Dick

 

[Loki-GT]

I probably won't get the opportunity to wander out that way anytime soon but since you say it is only a gradual incline I've driven on plenty of those at that speed range with no issues.

What rear axle ratio do you have? If 3.15 that may explain a big part of the reason why yours needs to shift since my 10th is slightly shorter than a 3.15 gear car's 9th. Plus most of my experience in the last couple of months is with 35 series tires which make my effective 10th gear another 4 percent "shorter".

This could make a big difference at very low revs. It doesn't explain the reluctance to downshift however. I wonder if the PP cars have a different shift calibration?

Also, are you running premium gas? If not then there could be ignition timing reductions that hurt low rpm torque.

Finally, what was your previous automatic and how did it handle this type of grade?

FYI I'm going to be driving through Asheville soon on I 40. It will be interesting to see how my car handles the steeper grades at freeway speeds. Revs will be a bit higher which will help but some of the grades are steeper. I'm sure if it starts to hunt, especially if traffic, rain, and/or my wife's comfort level require dropping below the speed limit on the steeper grades, I'll simply use S for a more aggressive calibration, with or without paddle control as needed. The 15 GT PP manual typically needed 5th in below speed limit driving in that area of I 40.

Dick

Good points, mine has 3:55's and I run premium, I'm in Illinois so big hills are spread out but the ones I have gone up it stayed in gear without a downshift. I'm going to go out for a drive shortly to test it out, any reason to drive!

 

[Flyhalf]

I was tented of pp2. But a10 was imo a game changer for pp1. No magnaride. I plan to update the suspension so magnaride no worth it.
I would have buy the pp2 in case it has A10.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The major part being ignored isn't the difference between you and the A10's shifting. The difference is the A10 stays in the powerband through all of the gears while when you shift up a gear you drop significantly more RPM's, you'd lose because of this advantage, not shifting speed because I'm with you there.

That's not all that's getting ignored . . .

I understand quite well about the tighter gear spacing in the A10 (it'd take about a minute for me to plot and post up gearing/speed/rpm for the A10 against any of a variety of MT's, if you like), and that you'd be hard-pressed to keep up with such closely spaced gearing with any conventional 3-pedal manual transmission. Never mind what would be required for a shift pattern.


That said, there's reward to be had in knowing that your own skill as a driver had more to do with the performance you were able to extract from your car than when you let technology and automation play a bigger role. I know I'd be more satisfied running 1:38's at my home track in a 3-pedal car than I would be running 1:35's in a car with an automatic. Sure, I'd be willing to try it out. But at the end of the session I know I'd have missed out on something (like, the big part of why I'd be out on a track in the first place) and that I'd really have to be sharing the credit with yet another computer and somebody else's ideas of how my car should be driven.

And that wouldn't make me better, even as it would allow me to be faster.


Norm

 

[Rash]

I probably won't get the opportunity to wander out that way anytime soon but since you say it is only a gradual incline I've driven on plenty of those at that speed range with no issues.

What rear axle ratio do you have? If 3.15 that may explain a big part of the reason why yours needs to shift since my 10th is slightly shorter than a 3.15 gear car's 9th. Plus most of my experience in the last couple of months is with 35 series tires which make my effective 10th gear another 4 percent "shorter".

This could make a big difference at very low revs. It doesn't explain the reluctance to downshift however. I wonder if the PP cars have a different shift calibration?

Also, are you running premium gas? If not then there could be ignition timing reductions that hurt low rpm torque.

Finally, what was your previous automatic and how did it handle this type of grade?

FYI I'm going to be driving through Asheville soon on I 40. It will be interesting to see how my car handles the steeper grades at freeway speeds. Revs will be a bit higher which will help but some of the grades are steeper. I'm sure if it starts to hunt, especially if traffic, rain, and/or my wife's comfort level require dropping below the speed limit on the steeper grades with "sharper" curves, I'll simply use S for a more aggressive calibration, with or without paddle control as needed. The 15 GT PP manual typically needed 5th in below speed limit driving in that area of I 40.

Dick

Yea, I'm 3.15, non-PP, running 275/35/20s if that matters. My previous auto was 06 GT with 3.31, runnings 18s. Regular gas,.

 

[Pongo23]

Well said!!!!

That's not all that's getting ignored . . .

I understand quite well about the tighter gear spacing in the A10 (it'd take about a minute for me to plot and post up gearing/speed/rpm for the A10 against any of a variety of MT's, if you like), and that you'd be hard-pressed to keep up with such closely spaced gearing with any conventional 3-pedal manual transmission. Never mind what would be required for a shift pattern.


That said, there's reward to be had in knowing that your own skill as a driver had more to do with the performance you were able to extract from your car than when you let technology and automation play a bigger role. I know I'd be more satisfied running 1:38's at my home track in a 3-pedal car than I would be running 1:35's in a car with an automatic. Sure, I'd be willing to try it out. But at the end of the session I know I'd have missed out on something (like, the big part of why I'd be out on a track in the first place) and that I'd really have to be sharing the credit with yet another computer and somebody else's ideas of how my car should be driven.

And that wouldn't make me better, even as it would allow me to be faster.


Norm

 

[DickR]

Yea, I'm 3.15, non-PP, running 275/35/20s if that matters. My previous auto was 06 GT with 3.31, runnings 18s. Regular gas,.

Thanks.

I'm confused as to why your's is apparently both "gutless" and reluctant to downshift. I can sort of understand why in that rev range it doesn't have the torque to maintain speed but I don't know why it is reluctant to downshift. As I said I'll pay attention to mine to see if I can get some clues despite the gearing and possible calibration differences. I'll also make sure I'm "observing" accurately.

Looking at the specs for the 2006 5spd auto it had a somewhat shorter 5th gear than either 9th or 10th in the 10R80 and the 3.31 gear ratio was shorter and the car was a little lighter but given how much more power and torque the 18 has, even with regular gas possibly knocking it down some small unknown amount from advertised I'm surprised that yours is behaving that way. I know our gutless wonder 97 GT with 4 speed auto, my 2012 GT 6 speed auto, and none of my manual transmission GT's have had any problem maintaining those speeds in top gear on the kind of inclines you are describing. Heck my 88 LX 5.0 manual would tow my 2500 lb open trailer with open wheel race car in top gear on most inclines at around 60 mph or higher but would need a downshift at lower speeds but another 2500 lbs explains that. ;)

 

[Loki-GT]

That's not all that's getting ignored . . .

I understand quite well about the tighter gear spacing in the A10 (it'd take about a minute for me to plot and post up gearing/speed/rpm for the A10 against any of a variety of MT's, if you like), and that you'd be hard-pressed to keep up with such closely spaced gearing with any conventional 3-pedal manual transmission. Never mind what would be required for a shift pattern.

You're missing the point, yes the gearing is tighter, a lot tighter. You could be the fastest shifting person on the planet, it doesn't matter. The A10 keeps the revs up into the powerband, the manual does not, it has to rev back up into the powerband. I'd love for somebody to plot it but that's not really needed, drag strip times show the advantage and it's not a small one.

Of course there are ways to drive the new A10 poorly, like leaving it in sport mode and short shifting. Bad driver mods are interesting to watch at the track. :lol:

That said, there's reward to be had in knowing that your own skill as a driver had more to do with the performance you were able to extract from your car than when you let technology and automation play a bigger role.

Of course there is reward for both auto/manual drivers, you assume because of technology and "automation" as if that might be a bad thing. Assuming a person driving stick has the good driver mod they will lose to an equally good driver mod driving an A10, this isn't guessing, it's fact. There is also reward in just plain 'ol winning using the advantage you're able to use. How you want to handle the loss by saying you worked harder so it's ok, is still a loss.

It's a run what ya brung, just hope ya brung enough kind of world. Who ever gets over the finish line first wins, everything else is excuses.

I know I'd be more satisfied running 1:38's at my home track in a 3-pedal car than I would be running 1:35's in a car with an automatic. Sure, I'd be willing to try it out. But at the end of the session I know I'd have missed out on something (like, the big part of why I'd be out on a track in the first place) and that I'd really have to be sharing the credit with yet another computer and somebody else's ideas of how my car should be driven.

And that wouldn't make me better, even as it would allow me to be faster.

Norm

Well as they say to each his own, I don't road race and since I can't drive manual anymore my mind has been opened to the new A10. I had no choice, buy the auto or don't buy at all.

Also, people who think road racing an automatic is mindless try it some time (you mention you'd be willing to try it out, that would be awesome), you'll find it's more work than you think and can be very rewarding in road racing or drag racing now that the A10 is out.

I absolutely love both and PREFER the manual but due to circumstance find myself driving the best automatic to have ever graced a Ford in the history of the Mustang and it happened with perfect timing so I'm going to be singing it's praises as I work to eeek out every tenth from this sucker as I can.

:cheers:

.

 

[Loki-GT]

Yea, I'm 3.15, non-PP, running 275/35/20s if that matters. My previous auto was 06 GT with 3.31, runnings 18s. Regular gas,.

You could unplug the battery to reset the learning and start fresh.

 

[Loki-GT]

Thanks.

I'm confused as to why your's is apparently both "gutless" and reluctant to downshift. I can sort of understand why in that rev range it doesn't have the torque to maintain speed but I don't know why it is reluctant to downshift. As I said I'll pay attention to mine to see if I can get some clues despite the gearing and possible calibration differences. I'll also make sure I'm "observing" accurately.

Looking at the specs for the 2006 5spd auto it had a somewhat shorter 5th gear than either 9th or 10th in the 10R80 and the 3.31 gear ratio was shorter and the car was a little lighter but given how much more power and torque the 18 has, even with regular gas possibly knocking it down some small unknown amount from advertised I'm surprised that yours is behaving that way. I know our gutless wonder 97 GT with 4 speed auto, my 2012 GT 6 speed auto, and none of my manual transmission GT's have had any problem maintaining those speeds in top gear on the kind of inclines you are describing. Heck my 88 LX 5.0 manual would tow my 2500 lb open trailer with open wheel race car in top gear on most inclines at around 60 mph or higher but would need a downshift at lower speeds but another 2500 lbs explains that. ;)

I drove to work today, I found that in normal mode automatic on steeper hills it would stay in 10th as long as I was going fast enough to keep it above 1,300rpm's. If it dipped much under most times it dropped into 9th.

In sport mode in 10th gear it would get a bit bogged down as it would stay in 10th down to about 1,000rpm at that point I downshifted as it doesn't sound pretty in 10th at 1k rpm's.

I did finally get it on the highway, at 70 I'm just under 2,000 rpms, the engine is so dead quiet it's kind of creepy quiet. Pull the shifter back into sport mode and floor it, oh hell yeah!

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