Cars.com compare the PP1 vs PP2

[MaskedRacerX]

What's not to understand? Some items I got used.. others will be new.

I believe he's saying you're moving the goalposts a little too far. When you start talking about used parts of some unknown price with unpredictable availability vs. a new PP2 that's at X performance from day one, it's kind of meaningless. If you're going to bring up super cheap used parts (that presumably you DIY install), why not just start with a used '15 base model GT and save another $5K-8K? You really can't talk generalities using an outlier example that may not be repeatable - otherwise, then I guess I'd say a mint, low mileage $40K used GT350 is a better deal vs. a PP2, I mean, I haven't actually seen one at that price but I __might__

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[WildHorse]

why not just start with a used '15 base model GT

Cause I'm a fan of Grabber Blue lol

 

[jake_zx2]

My opinion on touchscreens isn't particularly favorable to begin with (I have my reasons), and it's lower still with respect to their use as control interfaces in a firm-riding car..

Well luckily, that's what steering wheel controls are for!

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but what you're looking for is unobtanium in the modern car world. The Mustang is the ONLY $40k performance car I can think of at the moment that even offers infotainment without a touchscreen. You won't find manual controls in a 1LE or really any other car you're considering, so there's really no point in complaining about it with a mustang. It's not exactly a shortcoming if it's up to par with the competition.

These days I'm on fixed income, so I really can't afford to be at the mercy of $100/hour shop rates for more things than absolutely necessary, and as technology progresses more and more of it lies beyond my ability to diagnose, repair, or modify. Nor can I afford to jump on the "get a new car before the old car's warranty runs out" bandwagon either. Let me suggest that similar concerns apply at the beginning of one's career and possibly at times during it.

Again, bearer of bad news, but you can have all the same problems in a base infotainment system as you can in the 301a. Hell, I've had more issues with my calculator screen equipped Focus's infotainment than I have ever even heard of with Sync3

I believe he's saying you're moving the goalposts a little too far. When you start talking about used parts of some unknown price with unpredictable availability vs. a new PP2 that's at X performance from day one, it's kind of meaningless. If you're going to bring up super cheap used parts (that presumably you DIY install), why not just start with a used '15 base model GT and save another $5K-8K? You really can't talk generalities using an outlier example that may not be repeatable - otherwise, then I guess I'd say a mint, low mileage $40K used GT350 is a better deal vs. a PP2, I mean, I haven't actually seen one at that price but I __might__

nail on the head :cheers:

 

[w3rkn]

At that point a person might as well buy an absolute base GT and build it up on a DIY basis from there . . . don't think that this doesn't keep crossing my mind as a third option to a GT/PP2 and one other possibility. But it'd be nice to be able to buy a car that was near the top of the performance heap for the car model of your choice, where you'd only be upgrading the various consumables as they wear out. Without being forced to accept unwanted luxury and needless complexity to get into that car in the first place.

I've had to cope with enough unwanted features on some of the sedans we've bought over the years to know that I just don't want them present.

You just found the poster-boy for what I actively don't want in a car. My opinion on touchscreens isn't particularly favorable to begin with (I have my reasons), and it's lower still with respect to their use as control interfaces in a firm-riding car. I basically put up with the one on the printer that sits on the other side of the table, and that's plenty (feel free to read into this anything you care to . . .). Having spent enough time in my life looking at computer screens (and probably too much time looking at them now), when I get into one of my cars to go somewhere it's refreshing to get completely away from the damn things.


These days I'm on fixed income, so I really can't afford to be at the mercy of $100/hour shop rates for more things than absolutely necessary, and as technology progresses more and more of it lies beyond my ability to diagnose, repair, or modify. Nor can I afford to jump on the "get a new car before the old car's warranty runs out" bandwagon either. Let me suggest that similar concerns apply at the beginning of one's career and possibly at times during it.


Norm

Norm, as much as you don't like progressive technology, I think you'd find a loaded PP2 perfect for what you do. Everything you need & do for day to day stuff, is knobs. Everything else is set & forget...

You'd love magneride on street roads, too...

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, as much as you don't like progressive technology, I think you'd find a loaded PP2 perfect for what you do.

Neither my wife nor I needs or wants more technology in our cars than what it takes to operate them on the streets (and sometimes on a track). Beyond that, there really isn't much of anything other than HVAC and a basic FM/CD sound system that either of us ever use. Though in her Subie we do use the dual-zone HVAC from time to time.

It just seems like such a waste and a bunch of clutter to have all those things that aren't ever going to get used, and neither of us is into impressing other people with our choices (any of them) . . . never mind that I'd have to find a way to keep SYNC deaf and dumb and BT in a permanent coma (there's a couple of stories).

Everything you need & do for day to day stuff, is knobs. Everything else is set & forget...

Hopefully that, or at least controls on the steering wheel for the sound system.

You'd love magneride on street roads, too...

Even my '08 GT doesn't ride badly on most streets. That's with springs having roughly the same wheel rates as the GT350R, significantly firmer sta-bars than OE, and shocks & struts that provide at least adequate control over it all. If I ever do get a car with MR, I'll probably be looking to an outfit like DSC from the get-go for the means to tweak some of the MR maps.


I think people sometimes try to project their likes and preferences just a little too hard, and I'm certainly including the powers-that-be in Ford Marketing here.


Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

never mind that I'd have to find a way to keep SYNC deaf and dumb and BT in a permanent coma (there's a couple of stories).

Interested to hear the stories on this, unless its some sort of "THE GOVERMENT CAN HEAR ME" type BS. Either way, setting Bluetooth to "Off" on your phone isn't that hard, and regardless, there are problems that you'd also have in the base car, so not really any sort of nuisance there

Hopefully that, or at least controls on the steering wheel for the sound system.

As I said a couple posts ago, pretty much everything that you'd need to do on a daily basis can be done though the steering wheel

I think people sometimes try to project their likes and preferences just a little too hard, and I'm certainly including the powers-that-be in Ford Marketing here.

I don't think it's Ford trying to "project their preferences", I think it's them trying to offer the same standard amenities as a competing package (SS 1LE) while still offering a complete base model for those who just want the cheapest car possible. It's not far fetched to assume that people who would spend an extra $6500 for a performance package would be inclined to spend an extra $2000 on some extra amenities

 

[w3rkn]

Neither my wife nor I needs or wants more technology in our cars than what it takes to operate them on the streets (and sometimes on a track). Beyond that, there really isn't much of anything other than HVAC and a basic FM/CD sound system that either of us ever use. Though in her Subie we do use the dual-zone HVAC from time to time.

It just seems like such a waste and a bunch of clutter to have all those things that aren't ever going to get used, and neither of us is into impressing other people with our choices (any of them) . . . never mind that I'd have to find a way to keep SYNC deaf and dumb and BT in a permanent coma (there's a couple of stories).

Hopefully that, or at least controls on the steering wheel for the sound system.

Even my '08 GT doesn't ride badly on most streets. That's with springs having roughly the same wheel rates as the GT350R, significantly firmer sta-bars than OE, and shocks & struts that provide at least adequate control over it all. If I ever do get a car with MR, I'll probably be looking to an outfit like DSC from the get-go for the means to tweak some of the MR maps.


I think people sometimes try to project their likes and preferences just a little too hard, and I'm certainly including the powers-that-be in Ford Marketing here.


Norm

Like I said, you are not giving the modern era (2019) Mustang enough credit in it's simplicity.

I am coming from BMW's world and ergonomics and "traditional"... mean something to me, while.. over-done glam & gizmos are NOT my thing. As a hardliner myself, I would not own a sync2 Ford system, but find the necessary Sync3 system improvements to be golden. Non-intrusive and with a "set it & forget it" nature. (Things that are needy, are at hand. Those that can wait, do.)

With traditional knobs and controls at your finger & in their traditional places. There is a spartan aspect to it all, when it is integrated into one system like it is. Nothing is in your face and with the Mustangs new digital dash, the experience can be muted, or as flamboyant as you want. Even in race mode, you can have more data at your fingertips, if need be. Hence, your leisure, if need be.



Also, there is no more noise, or clutter or clatter or weight.. in having all the tech integrated into a single unit. Doing so allows the infotainment to become background and sparse, allowing the traditional knobs to dominate your needs. Integrating the technology isn't a hinderance, it provides a luxury... to performance track cars and racing in the year 2019..!


And Tony…
You deserve it to Yourself a test ride in a 2019 mustang GT Premium... (& then tell the rest of us, what is wrong with air conditioned seats..? While your turning faster laps... than a BOSS 302 from just a few years earlier..)

 

[Norm Peterson]

Interested to hear the stories on this, unless its some sort of "THE GOVERMENT CAN HEAR ME" type BS. Either way, setting Bluetooth to "Off" on your phone isn't that hard, and regardless, there are problems that you'd also have in the base car, so not really any sort of nuisance there

My wife's Subie has a lot of this technology - that being about the only way to get a moderately powerful sedan with a MT these days - and we had hoped that those unwanted features would at least stay out of sight/out of mind. Unfortunately, our experience has been that they don't always stay asleep/in the background.

There have been a number of incidents where an urgent need to reach for the horn has triggered an insistent voice requesting me to do something - at precisely the times when I'm way too busy to be bothered with anything but the most immediate driving tasks. There isn't much question that the steering wheel buttons associated with that feature could and probably should have been located differently. But those episodes had been such a PITA, not to mention the immediate safety issue, that I've made even intentionally pushing those buttons virtually impossible (we never intentionally used them anyway). If what I did stops doing its job, out comes the super-glue.

Then there was a period when the BT would break into what I'd been listening to on the radio and play conversations my daughter was having on her phone instead. For reasons I doubt we'll ever know, nothing any of us tried either on the car end or with her phone could un-pair (term?) her phone from our car. Only after she got a new phone did the problem go away. I don't ever want to go through that again.

As I said a couple posts ago, pretty much everything that you'd need to do on a daily basis can be done though the steering wheel

I'm crossing my fingers on that continuing to be the case.

I don't think it's Ford trying to "project their preferences", I think it's them trying to offer the same standard amenities as a competing package (SS 1LE) while still offering a complete base model for those who just want the cheapest car possible. It's not far fetched to assume that people who would spend an extra $6500 for a performance package would be inclined to spend an extra $2000 on some extra amenities

There's a flip side to that, where those who opt for the top cornering & handling performance option could be more expected to choose performance without luxury than, say, GT/PP1 buyers and people buying at least moderately-equipped non-PP1 GTs.

I'm fine with the notion of making 301A available with PP2 - I'm not suggesting that Ford should take that away from anybody who wants 301A features with their PP2. I'm just not on board with making 301A mandatory equipment on everybody's PP2.


BTW, a feature doesn't have to be "high-tech" in nature for me to object to it if it gets in my way.


Norm

 

[Tim Kiely]

Now I watched the video and went through as many of the posted comments as I could stand. I got a little numb with the arguing back and forth and I am sure I missed some posts that explained this all as I see it. So if someone else has said this I apologize in advance.

I went back again and watched the video and the narrator specifically says this is not an apple to apple comparison. He does however state that the goal was to see how much faster the PP2 was over the PP1 as configured and tested, and was it worth getting the PP2. The drag race portion was null and void as I see it due to the rainy conditions, and frankly the automatic should be faster on a straight line acceleration under most conditions and driver skill level.

The track pro said it pretty clearly, that the PP1 was a better daily driver car and good as an occasional track car. The PP2 was described as not being suited to daily driving, but was much better as a regular track car due to the enhanced track settings with the suspension and better braking due to the true track tires.

The final outcome was that the PP2 as configured was 46K and the “top of the line” PP1 was 52K. Both ran pretty well on the track with PP2 being 4 seconds faster. Just a comparison nothing more nothing less. A great all around car vs a tremendous track car

 

[Norm Peterson]

The track pro said it pretty clearly, that the PP1 was a better daily driver car and good as an occasional track car. The PP2 was described as not being suited to daily driving, but was much better as a regular track car due to the enhanced track settings with the suspension and better braking due to the true track tires. . . .

I can see how the cars.com reviewer might feel that way, because he's still oriented more to the average consumer who probably wouldn't buy a Mustang with either level of PP.

But I don't understand the HPDE driving instructor being in such close agreement, with just a few miles of driving - and only on the track at that - as basis. Despite its performance capabilities for a couple of hard laps anyway, as track cars go it's just not so hardcore that its usability in normal street driving is compromised to any significant extent.


Norm

 

[IronG]

Now I watched the video and went through as many of the posted comments as I could stand. I got a little numb with the arguing back and forth and I am sure I missed some posts that explained this all as I see it. So if someone else has said this I apologize in advance.

I went back again and watched the video and the narrator specifically says this is not an apple to apple comparison. He does however state that the goal was to see how much faster the PP2 was over the PP1 as configured and tested, and was it worth getting the PP2. The drag race portion was null and void as I see it due to the rainy conditions, and frankly the automatic should be faster on a straight line acceleration under most conditions and driver skill level.

The track pro said it pretty clearly, that the PP1 was a better daily driver car and good as an occasional track car. The PP2 was described as not being suited to daily driving, but was much better as a regular track car due to the enhanced track settings with the suspension and better braking due to the true track tires.

The final outcome was that the PP2 as configured was 46K and the “top of the line” PP1 was 52K. Both ran pretty well on the track with PP2 being 4 seconds faster. Just a comparison nothing more nothing less. A great all around car vs a tremendous track car

LOL….you are not wrong about the mind numbing arguing, it is just a way of life on internet forums with this one being no different. I agree with Norm, that the PP cars are not what most people buy (probably for many reasons) and the reviewers did only have a short time with the cars and only on the track. If you want a view from current owners, try reading this thread. Much better info with limited mind numbing bits https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/pp2-owner-experiences-raves-quirks.111683/

 

[Tim Kiely]

I completely agree with both of you. I think a more astute observation by the reviewer should have been to say that to take full advantage of the PP2 capabilities, a road course is more
optimal. Those big old race tires want to go fast and hard, not putz around in daily traffic

 

[Silver Bullitt]

I have 4,042 miles on my PP2. Less than 50 of those were actually on the track. I find it to be a great street machine.

 

[Tim Kiely]

I have no doubt that the PP2 does just fine on the street, and probably shreds some great backroads. I wonder how the PP2 tires hold up with daily driving conditions. Pretty sure that no matter which one you drive they are awesome cars and both styles of replacement tires are to damn expensive. BTW I am loving my new Bullitt!

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

For the level of grip it has (PP2), IMO you'd be hard pressed to find a car that's more tame on the street.

However, if paying attention to the car, and your driving, annoys you, the PP2 is not the car for you. The tramlining does require near constant driver attention on rutted surfaces.

If you can deal with that though, it absolutely makes mincemeat out of backroads! And canyons. And mountain roads. And... I hear from those who have, it's a hell of a car on the track too.

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