2016 GT suspension recommendations

[shogun32]

If you could take an architectural cut of both tires, you could see the differences. Those differences are called tolerances.

ok, out with it. Who do you work for and please provide cross-section cutaways of either the tires in question or comparable. I have heard nothing about the Indy delaminating or doing bad things and it's been used for track duty by quite a few people. It being the same company it stands to reason they used the exact same molds and tire construction as the original Bridgestone. Tirerack shows they are made in Indonesia, Thailand or Japan depending on size. We don't know if the compounds are different from the original and if 3rd-world production necessarily means that quality control went to sh*t. Do provide some substantiated evidence instead of hand-waving.

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[Norm Peterson]

Near as I can tell, the RE003 was more of a Pilot Sport 3 / original Goodyear F1 Asymmetric level tire. Not bad tires at all (pretty good, actually), just not top-shelf any more. Maybe half a step below MPSS, which in turn is maybe half a step shy of the PS4S.

I'm finding that the RE003 was marketed in Eastern Asia, Eastern Europe & Central Asia, Africa, and Oceania, but apparently not in North America. I would not be surprised if there are a number of subtle differences between the RE003 and the Indy 500 specifically to suit the Indy 500 being intended for North American sale, just like there are subtle differences among tires carrying specific M, A, K or N designations for specific manufacturers vs "undesignated" tires in the same tire model and size.


As a side note, I find Bridgestone hanging the 'Adrenalin' tag on their 003 to be a bit off-putting. Tire names containing emotional content is how you attract customers who don't know anything about tires and wouldn't ever know if they were actually getting the implied goodness . . .


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

It being the same company it stands to reason they used the exact same molds and tire construction as the original Bridgestone.

Same molds, quite possibly. Exact same construction, not necessarily (and I would guess that it probably isn't). See above comment concerning A, K, M, and N tire designations. Or GM's TPC spec, for that matter. Differences can and do exist, and it is my understanding that there is some back and forth between car mfrs and tire mfrs when it comes to designing tires for the OE side of the market.

I have heard nothing about the Indy delaminating or doing bad things and it's been used for track duty by quite a few people.

Not being on the top shelf any more doesn't suddenly make something a poor choice, or mean that in absolute terms it's not as good as it used to be. Only that something better is available, usually at a price premium. FWIW, I've got too much tread life left in my sets of MPSS to move any of them up to PS4S (or to some 200-treadwear autocross/track day special in one case) just yet. If I was in tire-buying mode and MPSS was available but PS4S was on lengthy backorder I still wouldn't feel like I was taking a step back buying MPSS.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

ok, out with it. Who do you work for and please provide cross-section cutaways of either the tires in question or comparable.

I'm thinking that even cross section cutaways aren't going to show you everything you'd need to know.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

I'm thinking that even cross section cutaways aren't going to show you everything you'd need to know.

Fair enough, I don't think I could visual spot 2 vs 3 aramid belts or aramid vs nylon - eg. how Porche OEM tires differ from universal models.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Tires are incredibly more complex than their outward appearance can even begin to suggest.

Short of buying college-level textbooks on tires from the SAE, spending a little quality reading time on this site may be of some help with this particular tire topic. I know of this guy from a non-car forum (and I think I need to shoot him an email about a couple of things on his site). He's the pro, I'm just an amateur here (even though I've been looking at tires for things beyond sizes and tread patterns for a little over 50 years at this point).


Norm

 

[AirCooled222]

I'd rather not say who I work for because of obvious reasons. However, I can tell you that regardless of where a tire is made, the quality standards of the company written on the sidewall does not change. That being said, Firestone's quality standards are not the best even in the 2nd tier tire world no matter where they are made. That is a pretty well known fact in the tire business.
2nd tier is such wide variety of tire companies that it could really be broken up into Tier 2a and 2b. Lots of different quality cultures in that category.

As far as tire construction being different, I would say most construct their tires using the same order of steps. Innerliner, 1-3 plies, beadset (between the 2 and 3 ply if applicable), sidewall, 2 metallic belts, another layer of ply cords which locks the metallic belts and tread together, tread, cover with a nonstick lube, cure, and sort. The bead is always the anchor point regardless of company. It is the tolerance of the placement of all those components that would differ from company to company. Tight tolerance equal better uniformity and are expensive for a company to enforce.

Now, most of your Tier 1 tires do not touch human hands until after cure. They are all machine built with automation. Tier 2 use RMS machines (widely used in the business) or VMI machines (these are cool machines, but super expensive and out of reach for most tier 2s). Those that use RMS machines and some VMI are 100% made by a humans. Meaning, every component is touched and placed by hand. This makes every tire a snowflake and is uniformity nightmare on Z rated tires. You can get away with a lot when constructing ATs and mud tires that you couldn't when making car tires...
Also, tier 1 tires X-Ray every tire before they leave the plant...huge part of quality control. Some Tier 2 will take random samples to X-ray, others don't x-ray at all. Then there is uniformity tests...what the customer feels through the steering wheel.
There are repairs that can be done to make tires pass uniformity in a Tier 2 tire that get thrown in the trash in a Tier 1. A cost that the customer is willing to pay for. There's several more differences beyond curing I'd rather not get in to...

No mold is the same. Each mold makes a tireline with completely different characteristics that a customer wants so each tireline is "cooked" differently. There are different styles of molds such as clam shell, segmented, and others. Clam shell makes the prettiest tires but segmented are far superior as far as how the rubber cures inside the tire. The sign of a segmented cure is the rubber flashing at the component overlap points. I can pick them out from a mile away... Toyo/Nitto makes very pretty tires I hardly ever see flashing on the sidewall. I would assume the only use a clam shell curing mold.

Finally the biggest difference in what makes a tire perform is the compound. There is natural rubber and synthetic rubber. The man made stuff is what is shrouded in secrecy. I can absolutely promise you that Bridgestone is not sharing it's latest and greatest rubber technology with anyone. Even a company that it owns isn't getting it's hands on that. As years go by, sure, there is some trickle down that the parent company hands over as old technology.

All this to say, there isn't an assembly line full of tires that are all the same and a guy stamping one company name on this one and another company name on another. What a ridiculous business model that would be to sell the same tires at different costs because the name on the sidewall.

People say, you're only paying for the name. When it comes to tires there is a lot that goes into that name.

 

[kz]

I have talked directly to Bridgestone US guys when they showed at one of US SCCA events (Wilmington Champ Tour if I remember correctly - they used to bring a van, would mount/flip Bridgestone tires for free, had shirts / hats and other stuff and display of tires) and asked them what they think about Indy (I was about to be done with my daily driver SP-04 Pole Position).

Their response (quote) "This tire is sold outside US as Bridgestone".

 

[AirCooled222]

I have talked directly to Bridgestone US guys when they showed at one of US SCCA events (Wilmington Champ Tour if I remember correctly - they used to bring a van, would mount/flip Bridgestone tires for free, had shirts / hats and other stuff and display of tires) and asked them what they think about Indy (I was about to be done with my daily driver SP-04 Pole Position).

Their response (quote) "This tire is sold outside US as Bridgestone".

This could be a true statement. Our company sends groups of people to racing events often. Mostly marketing and sales guys. Most of which have never stepped foot in a plant.

 

[kz]

This could be a true statement. Our company sends groups of people to racing events often. Mostly marketing and sales guys. Most of which have never stepped foot in a plant.

Sure.

 

[AirCooled222]

Here is a write up of the Firestone Indy vs Michelin and other competitors. It actually isn't all bad news. Plenty of good things to say about the tire. I do consider DriveTribe to be a good source of information.
Still, in my opinion, with the suspension upgrades I'm planning on doing to my car I think it is worth it to get the best grip a tire can offer (without going to a R compound).

https://drivetribe.com/p/michelin-v...grAbS_ykHT0rmRc24Q?iid=exn-szepSUmFnu5mkSuvPA

 

[shogun32]

Most of which have never stepped foot in a plant.

And you've observed recent Indy 500 tire production? Sure clamshell vs segmented can be visually ascertained but the rest? I mean 'Kia' was a swear word until it wasn't.

I'll grant you 'Firestone' tires for trucks and such were (or seemed to be) of low quality. And just because it's only redneck Americans who even recognize 'firestone' as a brand and thus a Bridgestone label is slapped on the tire for all other markets, doesn't mean "It's gotta be crap".

I mean we have this "relative excellence" discussion with engine oil and brake components too. Even if every Indy is hand-laid (really, who does this anymore?) by a drunk, half-blind oaf, if the final product still manages to do the deed for the people who buy it, I'm not sure what the point is going on about tier1 vs tier2. Sure precision and repeatability costs money.

I'm not aware that any professional racing org that has made Indy 500 the homologated tire (or hell, even the Michelin PS4S) so it's just us pretenders playing racerboy using them which suggests appropriate low skill and even less concern for 10ths of a second.

 

[Bluemustang]

Here is a write up of the Firestone Indy vs Michelin and other competitors. It actually isn't all bad news. Plenty of good things to say about the tire. Shame there isn't lap time comparisons included. I do consider DriveTribe to be a good source of information.
Still, in my opinion, with the suspension upgrades I'm planning on doing to my car I think it is worth it to get the best grip a tire can offer (without going to a R compound).

https://drivetribe.com/p/michelin-v...grAbS_ykHT0rmRc24Q?iid=exn-szepSUmFnu5mkSuvPA

Why not go above the Michelin and get Bridgestone RE71R then?

 

[shogun32]

Why not go above the Michelin and get Bridgestone RE71R then?

I actually asked the guys at RR in Sterling and they love the RE71. But on 3000lb cars, not 4000. They do 8hr endurance racing at Summit, and you're only allowed to change 1 wheel if you get a flat. Otherwise the car has to go behind the wall. The heavier cars only got about 5 hrs before the magic smoke was exhausted.

 

[AirCooled222]

And you've observed recent Indy 500 tire production? Sure clamshell vs segmented can be visually ascertained but the rest? I mean 'Kia' was a swear word until it wasn't.

I'll grant you 'Firestone' tires for trucks and such were (or seemed to be) of low quality. And just because it's only redneck Americans who even recognize 'firestone' as a brand and thus a Bridgestone label is slapped on the tire for all other markets, doesn't mean "It's gotta be crap".

I mean we have this "relative excellence" discussion with engine oil and brake components too. Even if every Indy is hand-laid (really, who does this anymore?) by a drunk, half-blind oaf, if the final product still manages to do the deed for the people who buy it, I'm not sure what the point is going on about tier1 vs tier2. Sure precision and repeatability costs money.

I'm not aware that any professional racing org that has made Indy 500 the homologated tire (or hell, even the Michelin PS4S) so it's just us pretenders playing racerboy using them which appropriate low skill and even less concern for 10ths of a second.

- Nope, never observed an Indy in production. I do know the quality culture of Firestone, though.

- I wouldn't say "it's crap". Only real crap tires are the Chinese market tires. Please don't touch these.

- Like the Kia comment, "relative excellence" doesn't matter until it does. Kia pumped 1 billion dollars into their quality in the course of year to get it to a standard. That is unheard of in this age. Typically companies would spend 1/4 of that money on marketing to make you think the item they're selling is good instead actually fixing anything. Kia makes fantastic cars these days because of that.
Lots of tires companies use RMS machines to hand build tires. Even the tires on my 94 GT were hand built. Maybe even yours... The tire builders are far from "Oafs". They may not be software engineers, but they are hard working people with a job that requires lots of skill and technique.

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