'

[millhouse]

And for reference, even ZL1 1LE owners know the brakes can be prone to fade.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=507855

Sponsored

 

[millhouse]

It's clear that the brakes on the ZL1 1LE aren't as good as those on the GT500 (or the GT350). Upgrading the fluid will help, but your brakes are still going to be running extremely high temperatures. This probably also means pad life will be shortened.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are likely more than adequate (given fluid and pad swaps). The GT500 still holds and advantage in that arena though...hence then entire line of discussion.

 

[02gtnh]

What's not to agree with? Car and driver experienced brake fade. They were unable to complete more than 5 laps due to it.

One car had a brake pedal that was squishy from the onset. From lap 1 to lap 100. Consistent, predictable, but maybe not the best feel. It was specifically mentioned that there was no fade.

The other car experienced brake fade that caused the vehicle to be unable to driven for more than 5 laps.

Again, these aren't debatable items. It's what happened. If you don't agree with it, then you are delusional.

Arguing brake fluids or why the GT500 had a squishy feel doesn't change this, nor does quoting an article from a different publication.

How many laps do you think they did for the GT500 testing? How many hot laps in a row do you think?

 

[millhouse]

How many laps do you think they did for the GT500 testing? How many hot laps in a row do you think?

1 million.

Seriously though, likely more than 5. It takes a few laps just to warm the tires up. My guess is they are running these cars for 15-25 minutes or more non stop. Figure 2-3 minutes per lap and you're looking at 7-12 laps I'd say, maybe more.

 

[shogun32]

How many hot laps in a row do you think?

I reckon 3 or 4. The stint may have been 20 minutes long, so after a cool down lap, another lap or two crack at it before coming back in for a breather. Depends how many mistakes the driver is making and whether he's getting faster or just blowing it.

 

[millhouse]

I reckon 3 or 4. The stint may have been 20 minutes long, so after a cool down lap, another lap or two crack at it before coming back in for a breather. Depends how many mistakes the driver is making and whether he's getting faster or just blowing it.

The fact that Car and Driver had issues with brake fade at 5 laps and had to repeatedly shut it down means they were out there for more than 5 each session.

Keep in mind, you're looking at 2 laps just to warm up the tires.

 

[02gtnh]

The fact that Car and Driver had issues with brake fade at 5 laps and had to repeatedly shut it down means they were out there for more than 5 each session.

Keep in mind, you're looking at 2 laps just to warm up the tires.

True, but how many test articles have you read where they actually changed the fluid during testing? For Randy to have both cars changed is very odd.

 

[millhouse]

True, but how many test articles have you read where they actually changed the fluid during testing? For Randy to have both cars changed is very odd.

Eh, I don't think I would call it odd. My guess is he was expecting the pedals to feel similar to the GT350...which they weren't. It sounds like he just didn't like the way they felt and Ford was on hand to see if they could appease him. Ford isn't the only ones to have done this. Hell, GM sent a c7 Z06 to motortrend for re-testing when they realized the one they had provided previously had a bad alignment.

The fact that the brakes were identical before and after the bleed suggests they are exactly as intended....hence the comments where a "feel preference" would have been somewhere in between the GT500's and the GT350's.

 

[shogun32]

how many test articles have you read where they actually changed the fluid during testing?

I'm not the least bit surprised journos would omit key activities. They don't even talk about hot and cold tire pressures or tread thickness. As far as "track tests" go they need to go find a copy of RoadRacing World and how they test vehicles and tires. Car print journos are an embarrassment.

Any decent test effort and especially those with factory technicians in attendance would make all necessary changes to help the car put down a better time - subject to any limitations imposed by the magazine's evaluation criteria. Changing fluid for Motul 600 or similar fresh bottle of high temp fluid is to be expected and especially so if a driver is unhappy with brake pedal behavior.

Some of you guys are desperately reading tea leaves to defend one car or another. Nobody cares if one is slightly faster than the other. Nobody sane who isn't a full time professional racer whose income is dependent on podiums, bases their purchase criteria on a couple feet or tenths here or there.

 

[ALUSA]

What? Are you blind? The GT500 was ahead almost the entire race until Randy looses it briefly in the last 30 seconds? Hell, the GT3 out muscled-ed the GT500 to the first turn. Here it is again because you obviously didn't watch the side by side...



These two cars were nearly identical in the turns. The GT500 has a slight advantage in the straights, have a (only slightly) HP/Weight advantage. Conversely, the GT3 RS was wearing Cup2 R tires...advantage for sure.

You quite frankly sound exactly like the Ass-hats on the camaro forums. Your blind hatred for the mustang is obvious...so much so that you change your arguments when you are proven wrong. Point in case, (according to you) the GT500 is now a failure because it (likely) won't out track a ZL1 1LE....a car that has solid bushings, stickier tires and race car (non street friendly) dampers.

BTW, I have never bet anyone on this forum anything period.

LOL to you. Excuse excuse. Look at the overall time. When the cars are already in motion for the straight line acceleration, the weight difference doesn't play a big role, there are lots of roll race examples. Huh now you say the ZL1 1LE is on sticky tires? You were arguing about how good the compound on the GT 500 was and didn't need the extra tire width. You are one funny guy. Next excuse is, Randy Pobst had to fart from Mexican Food he had and lost control of the GT 500 at the last turn

 

[02gtnh]

Eh, I don't think I would call it odd. My guess is he was expecting the pedals to feel similar to the GT350...which they weren't. It sounds like he just didn't like the way they felt and Ford was on hand to see if they could appease him. Ford isn't the only ones to have done this. Hell, GM sent a c7 Z06 to motortrend for re-testing when they realized the one they had provided previously had a bad alignment.

The fact that the brakes were identical before and after the bleed suggests they are exactly as intended....hence the comments where a "feel preference" would have been somewhere in between the GT500's and the GT350's.

Could be. But again your nit picking a article written 2.5 years ago. If you read there articles before that on the 1le, it says almost the same thing. Its like they write one article, change the name of other article, but use the same info. So your using one article and acting like its a issue with all 1le's. Here is there latest article on the 1le.



At triple-digit speeds, most street cars like to be eased (quickly) into full braking, not jumped on. That's not the case with the 1LE. The Camaro allows for a swift kick to the wide pedal. Coupled with the Goodyear gumballs made just for this car, it's almost as if you can't brake late enough. No complaints about brake-pedal travel this time around.

 

[millhouse]

LOL to you. Excuse excuse. Look at the overall time. When the cars are already in motion for the straight line acceleration, the weight difference doesn't play a big role, there are lots of roll race examples. Huh now you say the ZL1 1LE is on sticky tires? You were arguing about how good the compound on the GT 500 was and didn't need the extra tire width. You are one funny guy. Next excuse is, Randy Pobst had to fart from Mexican Food he had and lost control of the GT 500 at the last turn

Excuse? The GT500 was ahead nearly the entire race until Randy lost it towards the end. That's not an excuse, it's what happened.

I never argued the GT500 didn't need extra tire width? Where are you coming up with this BS?

And yes, the supercar 3R tires are sticky AF. But again, this is nothing new. Motortrend even claimed they were so sticky that they were unable to do a burnout in the ZL1 1LE.

Could be. But again your nit picking a article written 2.5 years ago. If you read there articles before that on the 1le, it says almost the same thing. Its like they write one article, change the name of other article, but use the same info. So your using one article and acting like its a issue with all 1le's. Here is there latest article on the 1le.

At triple-digit speeds, most street cars like to be eased (quickly) into full braking, not jumped on. That's not the case with the 1LE. The Camaro allows for a swift kick to the wide pedal. Coupled with the Goodyear gumballs made just for this car, it's almost as if you can't brake late enough. No complaints about brake-pedal travel this time around.

I wouldn't call highlighting a known issue nitpicking. Again, this isn't just documented in that article, but is also the experience of (some) ZLE owers (see previous camaro forum link).

As to why the new article didn't talk about fade, it likely didn't experience it. This could be due to VIR not having as many turns as Area 27...and therefore allowing for more cool-down and less heat soak. It could be from different technique used. It could be from just flat out not turning as many laps (they turned 40 laps in the test where they found fade). Or, maybe GM took note and supplied a car with fresh DOT 4 brake fluid and better pads.

We can argue this until our heads fall off. In the end, The ZLE can experience brake fade when stock as shown in testing and by owners.

 

[02gtnh]

Excuse? The GT500 was ahead nearly the entire race until Randy lost it towards the end. That's not an excuse, it's what happened.

I never argued the GT500 didn't need extra tire width? Where are you coming up with this BS?

And yes, the supercar 3R tires are sticky AF. But again, this is nothing new. Motortrend even claimed they were so sticky that they were unable to do a burnout in the ZL1 1LE.




I wouldn't call highlighting a known issue nitpicking. Again, this isn't just documented in that article, but is also the experience of (some) ZLE owers (see previous camaro forum link).

As to why the new article didn't talk about fade, it likely didn't experience it. This could be due to VIR not having as many turns as Area 27...and therefore allowing for more cool-down and less heat soak. It could be from different technique used. It could be from just flat out not turning as many laps (they turned 40 laps in the test where they found fade). Or, maybe GM took note and supplied a car with fresh DOT 4 brake fluid and better pads.

We can argue this until our heads fall off. In the end, The ZLE can experience brake fade when stock as shown in testing and by owners.

The link to owners complaining, I didn't see any. Most say tho if your going to seriously track the car, put better fluid in her. You will hear the same thing with the GT500

 

[millhouse]

The link to owners complaining, I didn't see any. Most say tho if your going to seriously track the car, put better fluid in her. You will hear the same thing with the GT500

I don't believe I said complain. I said they acknowledged the issue (which they do).

"The stock ZL1LE pad is the same Ferodo FM1000 street pad as every OE Brembo application. It’s a good street pad but is not designed for track applications. Depending on the track and the driving style it can be prone to fade. It is recommended to use a track oriented high temp pad for track use."

"exactly...for track, the stock pads fall short and cannot keep the temps in check and begin to fade. Read any article from the big three car magazines about the ZL1 1LE and they mention the brake pedal feeling “long” and “spongy” after a few hot laps. This may be due to the factory fill DOT 3 fluid GM insists on using. However, the pad compound also comes into question and a track pad is always better on track and is less prone to fade...ask anyone in the advanced groups at HPDE events what they prefer...I can guarantee their answer."

And the GT500 doesn't need better fluid, it comes with it from the factory. It does recommend fresh fluids.

 

[roygriffin2020]

The link to owners complaining, I didn't see any. Most say tho if your going to seriously track the car, put better fluid in her. You will hear the same thing with the GT500

Ford does say in the Track Prep to put "fresh" DOT-4 in before tracking.

Sponsored