2nd gen coyote vs 2011 GT500 and ZL1

[CrackedHorn]

I have a 15 mustang GT and while I love it, my eyes have started to wander. Especially, since car has 90k miles


From a performance goal standpoint of ~700bhp and fun factor I have started to entertain the idea of getting into a GT500 or ZL1.

My goal was always to boost my mustang, but there is something (a lot) to be said about factory FI cars. And, like many, Covid had setback my plans.

I know I'll take a weight penalty, but as far as platform goes, am I just better off switching platforms here?

Or is this just wanderlust?

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[Balr14]

My son has a GT500 and it would take a lot of upgrades to a 15 GT to match it. It's not just the engine, there's a lot of engineering differences (suspension, coolers, bracing, etc.), beyond the obvious interior and exterior.

 

[MAGS1]

If you can swing it, skip the S197 GT500 and go for the S550 GT500. A base car can be had for mid/upper $70k’s for a car with some mileage on it (15-20k miles, nothing crazy). It’s an absolute blast of a car. The power is there when you want it but it’s actually well mannered for the street as well.

ZL1 is a fantastic car as well. For me, visibility is a real issue with the Camaro though. Not everyone has that experience but having driven several, it’s an issue for me. And it can hang with the GT500 on a lot of tracks (and beat it in some cases).

Just my $0.02 based on my experience driving both (I don’t own either so can’t speak to longer term ownership).

 

[Zrussian13]

Mine's a gen 3 TT car but I've never met an 11-14 gt500 or a zl1 that could keep up and I'm still on pump gas with an mt82 handicap. Lol Seems cheaper to upgrade the gen2.

 

[GrayMater22]

I have a 15 mustang GT and while I love it, my eyes have started to wander. Especially, since car has 90k miles


From a performance goal standpoint of ~700bhp and fun factor I have started to entertain the idea of getting into a GT500 or ZL1.

My goal was always to boost my mustang, but there is something (a lot) to be said about factory FI cars. And, like many, Covid had setback my plans.

I know I'll take a weight penalty, but as far as platform goes, am I just better off switching platforms here?

Or is this just wanderlust?

If you make a jump I agree with MAGS1, go gen6 gt500, my last ride was an 18 SS 1LE and it handled like nothing I have ever driven, but after one year I traded it in on the mustang GT premium because it was so tight inside (uncomfortable) and there are some visibility issues as well, my helmet wouldn’t even fit through the side window on that car. When I test drove the mustang I felt like I was in an f150

 

[Hack]

What are the performance goals for wanting 700 hp? You say fun factor, but does that mean spinning the tires? Or drag strip? Top speed events? Road course?

The S197 GT500s are slow on the road course. I assume heat soak is an issue. So if you purchase one you may end up wanting to do additional modifications. The same issue may come up with 1/4 mile or top speed events, I'm not sure.

I haven't driven a ZL1, but Camaros have a LOOOOOOOT stiffer suspension than Mustangs. I have a cheap LT1, but it's less comfortable than my PP1 with Ford track handling suspension kit on it. So definitely get a test drive on different types of pavement and think for a while before buying. I don't mind the ride, but I feel it's a detraction from the car. I'm sure a performance version of the Camaro will have stiffer suspension than my LT1.

And I agree about the Camaro visibility issues. I don't mind it, but I agree it's hard to see out of that car, especially towards the rear. The Mustang feels like a huge greenhouse by comparison.

Bottom line to me is you can't go wrong with ZL1 or GT500 (S550), because they will retain their value much better than a modified Mustang GT. And I expect they will be more reliable as well.

Also consider a Rousch S550 Mustang with a warranty if you can still find one you're interested in. That might be a way to go. It should be a lot cheaper than the other options and still decent resale I assume.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Interesting scenario. I'd take a 2018+ GT w/ PP1 and A10 over a 2011 GT500, honestly. Those weren't that fast for 550ish hp. If you go S197 GT500 it has to be 2013-2014. Those are quicker than an A10 GT even though it's a manual.

If you're talking about a 6th gen ZL1, definitely get that since you said 700 bhp. It has 650 bhp stock and with a flex fuel tune up to E40 it'll be around 700 bhp. Or with an intake, ported TB, and pump gas tune it'll be very near 700 bhp and since it's 250 lbs lighter than a S550 GT500 it'll have a very similar power to weight ratio. Also, it's only about 50-75 lbs heavier than an auto GT, so weight isn't much of a factor. Every single performance metric in the ZL1 destroys a GT and even more so a pre refresh S550 GT, and it beats a S550 GT500 in many performance metrics (obviously not top end power).

The visibility in the Camaro isn't as good, but that's a fine trade-off for driving such a good performance car. I had my 2018 GT Premium PP1 w/ A10 and MagneRide when I bought my ZL1, and I thought about keeping it, but realized I'd never choose to drive the GT over the ZL1 (unless it was a long trip which I don't do in these cars anyway), so I sold it.

And the suspension in the ZL1 is totally acceptable and not harsh at all; it’s not nearly as stiff as Hack makes it out to be in his post above. And it is damped very well to where bumps don’t upset it like they do in the GT with MagneRide. Rebound damping in my GT was atrocious, comparatively.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

What are the performance goals for wanting 700 hp? You say fun factor, but does that mean spinning the tires? Or drag strip? Top speed events? Road course?

The S197 GT500s are slow on the road course. I assume heat soak is an issue. So if you purchase one you may end up wanting to do additional modifications. The same issue may come up with 1/4 mile or top speed events, I'm not sure.

I haven't driven a ZL1, but Camaros have a LOOOOOOOT stiffer suspension than Mustangs. I have a cheap LT1, but it's less comfortable than my PP1 with Ford track handling suspension kit on it. So definitely get a test drive on different types of pavement and think for a while before buying. I don't mind the ride, but I feel it's a detraction from the car. I'm sure a performance version of the Camaro will have stiffer suspension than my LT1.

And I agree about the Camaro visibility issues. I don't mind it, but I agree it's hard to see out of that car, especially towards the rear. The Mustang feels like a huge greenhouse by comparison.

Bottom line to me is you can't go wrong with ZL1 or GT500 (S550), because they will retain their value much better than a modified Mustang GT. And I expect they will be more reliable as well.

Also consider a Rousch S550 Mustang with a warranty if you can still find one you're interested in. That might be a way to go. It should be a lot cheaper than the other options and still decent resale I assume.

According to this table from Camaro6 the GT PP1 has much stiffer spring rates than an SS, despite this, the SS handles much better. I’m guessing the LT1 spring rates are similar to the SS rates. The GT’s perf pack rear springs are significantly stiffer than even the SS 1LE. Ford had to make up with the deficient S550 chassis by stiffening the spring rates to values much higher than the Camaro.

I suspect you’re feeling the overall chassis stiffness in the alpha chassis Camaro, which isn’t the same as suspension stiffness. My ZL1 rides better overall than my GT with PP1 and MagneRide did.

 

[Hack]

And the suspension in the ZL1 is totally acceptable and not harsh at all; it’s not nearly as stiff as Hack makes it out to be in his post above. And it is damped very well to where bumps don’t upset it like they do in the GT with MagneRide. Rebound damping in my GT was atrocious, comparatively.

The stock PP1 suspension on my 2017 was so soft I have called it dangerous when driven briskly. That car felt like an old-time Cadillac stock. With the track handling suspension on it, the car is a lot stiffer. I think it's similar to a GT350 in how stiff the suspension feels during normal driving.

I have daily driven my LT1 since I bought it in late October. There are a couple bridge expansion joints on my way home. In the Camaro, they make a loud BANG! and the car shudders. It scared me the first couple times. I don't think the car is going to be damaged by them, but it sounds bad for sure.

I bought a set of wheels and tires for snow. They were 18 inch wheels with 50 section width tires. Those definitely help with the harshness compared to running the stock 20 inch wheels with 40 section width tires. But the Mustang with stiff aftermarket suspension meant for track handling is still a lot more comfy than either.

I just drove my Mustang a couple days last week, since it was warm enough for the lovely Pirelli tires, and I didn't even notice those expansion joints. I was a couple miles past the bridge when I realized I had gone past it with no hammering of the suspension or loud noises. The second day I drove the Mustang in a row I was paying attention when I hit the bumps and they are a total non-factor - even with the much stiffer than stock suspension.

According to this table from Camaro6 the GT PP1 has much stiffer spring rates than an SS, despite this, the SS handles much better. I’m guessing the LT1 spring rates are similar to the SS rates. The GT’s perf pack rear springs are significantly stiffer than even the SS 1LE. Ford had to make up with the deficient S550 chassis by stiffening the spring rates to values much higher than the Camaro.

I suspect you’re feeling the overall chassis stiffness in the alpha chassis Camaro, which isn’t the same as suspension stiffness. My ZL1 rides better overall than my GT with PP1 and MagneRide did.

Whoever made up that table was either trying deliberately to be deceptive or they didn't really know what they were talking about. I assume they were trying to deny the truth - Camaro suspension is relatively harsh compared to the Mustang.

Remember that spring rate and wheel rate are not the same. Spring mounting points between the two cars are different as are the length of the suspension arms. So you can have the same spring in two cars, while having a completely different impact. Think of the suspension arms as levers that give a mechanical advantage to the spring. Depending on the ratios of the lengths from the pivot and to the wheel from the spring, the spring becomes effectively stronger or weaker. Hence the term "wheel rate", which describes how the springs work at the wheels.

The chassis of the Camaro feels fine. I think it's alright - albeit somewhat fragile compared to the Mustang. But that isn't what causes bumps to have loud and sharp impacts and heavy vibrations going through the car. It possibly could be shock tuning or the factory's decision to use 20 inch wheels more so than spring/wheel rate. I don't know. It doesn't really matter. It's just something for someone to know when shopping for a Camaro after driving a Mustang. The suspension is harsher.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

The stock PP1 suspension on my 2017 was so soft I have called it dangerous when driven briskly. That car felt like an old-time Cadillac stock. With the track handling suspension on it, the car is a lot stiffer. I think it's similar to a GT350 in how stiff the suspension feels during normal driving.

I have daily driven my LT1 since I bought it in late October. There are a couple bridge expansion joints on my way home. In the Camaro, they make a loud BANG! and the car shudders. It scared me the first couple times. I don't think the car is going to be damaged by them, but it sounds bad for sure.

I bought a set of wheels and tires for snow. They were 18 inch wheels with 50 section width tires. Those definitely help with the harshness compared to running the stock 20 inch wheels with 40 section width tires. But the Mustang with stiff aftermarket suspension meant for track handling is still a lot more comfy than either.

I just drove my Mustang a couple days last week, since it was warm enough for the lovely Pirelli tires, and I didn't even notice those expansion joints. I was a couple miles past the bridge when I realized I had gone past it with no hammering of the suspension or loud noises. The second day I drove the Mustang in a row I was paying attention when I hit the bumps and they are a total non-factor - even with the much stiffer than stock suspension.


Whoever made up that table was either trying deliberately to be deceptive or they didn't really know what they were talking about. I assume they were trying to deny the truth - Camaro suspension is relatively harsh compared to the Mustang.

Remember that spring rate and wheel rate are not the same. Spring mounting points between the two cars are different as are the length of the suspension arms. So you can have the same spring in two cars, while having a completely different impact. Think of the suspension arms as levers that give a mechanical advantage to the spring. Depending on the ratios of the lengths from the pivot and to the wheel from the spring, the spring becomes effectively stronger or weaker. Hence the term "wheel rate", which describes how the springs work at the wheels.

The chassis of the Camaro feels fine. I think it's alright - albeit somewhat fragile compared to the Mustang. But that isn't what causes bumps to have loud and sharp impacts and heavy vibrations going through the car. It possibly could be shock tuning or the factory's decision to use 20 inch wheels more so than spring/wheel rate. I don't know. It doesn't really matter. It's just something for someone to know when shopping for a Camaro after driving a Mustang. The suspension is harsher.

Interesting view, but we're going to have to agree to disagree as I feel the opposite. My ZL1 isn't any harsher than my PP1 GT with Magneride was, and arguably, it rides better on rough roads despite having 30 series sidewalls (305/30/20 and 285/30/20 up front) and has less body roll. The GT was easily upset by bumps while the ZL1 just soaks them up. If the road was bumpy I couldn't even be in sport+ mode (much less track mode) as the GT was exceptionally unsettled and bouncy. I can run those same roads in track mode on the ZL1 and not be unsettled. Now, it's a sports car, so it's stiffer than my Volvo of course, but for what it is, it's not harsh at all and much better damped.

 

[Hack]

Interesting view, but we're going to have to agree to disagree as I feel the opposite. My ZL1 isn't any harsher than my PP1 GT with Magneride was, and arguably, it rides better on rough roads despite having 30 series sidewalls (305/30/20 and 285/30/20 up front) and has less body roll. The GT was easily upset by bumps while the ZL1 just soaks them up. If the road was bumpy I couldn't even be in sport+ mode (much less track mode) as the GT was exceptionally unsettled and bouncy. I can run those same roads in track mode on the ZL1 and not be unsettled. Now, it's a sports car, so it's stiffer than my Volvo of course, but for what it is, it's not harsh at all and much better damped.

Maybe the 2018 GT PP1 suspension is by far stiffer than 2017 PP1 (non magride). Seems possible. And stiffer than Ford Performance's track handling pack - maybe. My GT350 had magneride, and it was twitchy on really rough roads. Never unsettled or bouncy, though. So I think the two of us just have very different views on what is harsh with suspension.

Maybe GM put stiffer suspension on the lowest cost, entry V8 model LT1 vs. the ZL1. So the LT1 is set up more for high performance handling than the ZL1.

Really doesn't seem likely to me.

If you go on the Camaro forums (which I do quite a bit now that I own one), you will find it's very common for people to complain about the harsh ride.

FYI.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Maybe the 2018 GT PP1 suspension is by far stiffer than 2017 PP1 (non magride). Seems possible. And stiffer than Ford Performance's track handling pack - maybe. My GT350 had magneride, and it was twitchy on really rough roads. Never unsettled or bouncy, though. So I think the two of us just have very different views on what is harsh with suspension.

Maybe GM put stiffer suspension on the lowest cost, entry V8 model LT1 vs. the ZL1. So the LT1 is set up more for high performance handling than the ZL1.

Really doesn't seem likely to me.

If you go on the Camaro forums (which I do quite a bit now that I own one), you will find it's very common for people to complain about the harsh ride.

FYI.

Obviously, the ZL1 is setup to be faster on a track and handle better than the entry V8 trim level. Perhaps your LT1 has runflats and since no magnetic dampers, stiffer springs and bigger sway bars to compensate, making the ride harsher. I have heard people complain about runflats being harsh on the Camaro forums, but don't recall much discussion about harshness on cars with Magnetic dampers and non-run flats. I have also heard people on here say the GT PP1 is stiffer riding than the GT PP1 w/ Magneride.

I'd describe the difference between my ZL1 and my GT as the wheel motion and control and body control feels much better in the ZL1. It's a smoother transition between wheel movement change of direction - whether in compression or rebound, which to me, feels less harsh.

 

[rolfe.oliver]

The S550 is leaps and bounds ahead of the s197. I would keep your 15 and put a Roush 2.3 on it. More power than the s197 GT500 and a better all around car. If you are talking 6th gen ZL1, I would go that route. If 5th gen, I am leaning more towards keeping your car and putting a 2.3 on it.

The 6th gen zl1 is just phenomenal. If I wasn't in an unhealthy relationship with my 350, I would have one of those.

 

[Balr14]

My comment about my son owning a GT 500 was meant to reference a 2021 GT 500. The old one with a solid rear axle was never a consideration. My neighbor has one of those (2013?) and it handles like an old muscle car.

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