Blew up my gen3 motor and don’t know where to go from here

[Hack]

the thing people don't understand about tunes is TUNES DO NOT MAKE POWER.
engines make power and a tune is supposed to PROTECT the engine.

any tune that "makes more power" is probably sacrificing reliability somewhere.

Makes sense to me. The Ford Performance Power Pack 3 tune partially takes advantage of the GT350 intake, throttle body, etc. but it also changes cam timing to increase effective compression. That's why 91 octane is required whereas the original runs fine on 87. It's like the changes made from 2017 to 2018 to increase power. It will reduce longevity as well and the higher octane fuel will cost you more.

The higher red line and higher compression will reduce engine life vs. the original factory lower compression setup.

However, the argument could be made for most anything that increases engine performance other than larger displacement or a change to other physical characteristics like valve sizes.

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[Oakley]

Makes sense to me. The Ford Performance Power Pack 3 tune partially takes advantage of the GT350 intake, throttle body, etc. but it also changes cam timing to increase effective compression. That's why 91 octane is required whereas the original runs fine on 87. It's like the changes made from 2017 to 2018 to increase power. It will reduce longevity as well and the higher octane fuel will cost you more.

The higher red line and higher compression will reduce engine life vs. the original factory lower compression setup.

However, the argument could be made for most anything that increases engine performance other than larger displacement or a change to other physical characteristics like valve sizes.

this is why i bought a car with more power than i wanted and have had ZERO desire to modify the engine for increased performance. I wanted dead nuts reliability and this car hasn't dissappointed one bit.

 

[engineermike]

To tune an engine you need more air and fuel. With our engine and variable valve timing you can open the valves earlier but there gets to a point that once you have completly filled the cylinders you cant put anymore in there and surely Ford would have done there best to do that originally? The only restrictions Ford have are emissions and economy. This is what these aftermarket tunes stretch, they might fire the ignition a degree or two earlier as most people with a tune will use the best fuel.
I suspect the best with a decent tune you are going to get is an extra 5% and potentially damage your motor.

Ford has the VVT timing at WOT pretty much nailed down, though I seem to have found a tiny bit of top end power by reducing the intake cam retard a little up top.

That said, in a stock NA engine, there is a tiny bit of performance left on the table by doing things like lowering the cooling fan temp, or adding some borderline timing if high octane fuel is used, or maybe raising shift points a little. It's not much they left on the table though.

 

[engineermike]

Makes sense to me. The Ford Performance Power Pack 3 tune partially takes advantage of the GT350 intake, throttle body, etc. ...

If you poke through that tune, basically all they did is change the TB curve and MAF curve to match the hardware, added borderline timing to match the fuel recommended, and increase pedal torque demand to increase responsiveness. That's about it. The cal was changed to match the hardware and give the drive a small sense of increased response. They even left all the cam timing stock.

 

[Hack]

this is why i bought a car with more power than i wanted and have had ZERO desire to modify the engine for increased performance. I wanted dead nuts reliability and this car hasn't dissappointed one bit.

I always want more power, but I didn't want direct injection or spray bore cylinder liners due to long term reliability concerns.

I did sell the GT350, but mostly because it would cost more to replace the engine. I assume I'll wear out the Coyote eventually, but I think it should cost less to replace.

Ford has the VVT timing at WOT pretty much nailed down, though I seem to have found a tiny bit of top end power by reducing the intake cam retard a little up top.

That said, in a stock NA engine, there is a tiny bit of performance left on the table by doing things like lowering the cooling fan temp, or adding some borderline timing if high octane fuel is used, or maybe raising shift points a little. It's not much they left on the table though.

Makes sense. After I posted that it occurred to me that ignition timing might be a more significant factor.

It was very surprising to me how different the engine feels with PP3 on it. It went from low end torque focused to a higher revving feel. I was impressed.

 

[Zrussian13]

I agree, especially the 2018+ is more fragile and complicated compared to the earlier Coyotes. I picked a tune from Ford Performance that Ford offers a warranty on. I know other tuners can get more power out, but I trust Ford more.

I think my advice to the OP has already been stated by several others, so I won't comment on that.

What's more fragile about the gen 3?

 

[GL95]

I don't have an answer for you. I'm roughing out some "What would I do?" ideas. Maybe these could help.

I cannot price a used Mustang with a failed motor but in otherwise good condition. A running 2020 example with your mileage prices about $17,500 retail. See Autotrader.

You owe $11,000.

A replacement Coyote crate motor is $11,000. IDK what labor would be to swap engines.

My initial thought is replace the engine, no more tuning or mods and continue to drive it until something catastrophic happens. If you went this route, you'd now owe $22,000 on the same car, but continue to have the asset and use of it for at least several years to come.

If you sold the car as-is, what would it be worth? Subtract that from the $11,000. And you'd lose the asset. Even if you broke even money-wise, $11,000-11,000 =0, you'd now have to go out and buy another vehicle (something around $22,000 and under?) you could drive for as many years as expected with the current one, once repaired.

$20,000+ will get you another Mustang, but the engine and drivetrain will have roughly the same mileage as what you have now. Maybe a bit less. But you've been with your existing car and know it. Another vehicle, no.

So maybe gravitate around $20-25,000. Is the existing car worth that (to you), once repaired? Or is it better to spend that much on a used vehicle and roll the dice on that one?

Edit,

I did not consider repairing the existing engine. By the time a shop is found, the engine torn down, inspected and then fixed, it seems cheaper, safer and easier to replace the engine outright.

Where are you buying a pp1 2020 for 17.5k? I just sold a 2019 to carvana for 31.6 and the cheapest 2018+ mustang with a coyote is 25k on autotrader

 

[Balr14]

Where are you buying a pp1 2020 for 17.5k? I just sold a 2019 to carvana for 31.6 and the cheapest 2018+ mustang with a coyote is 25k on autotrader

I believe that $17.5k value was with a blown engine.

In any case, my choice would be to replace the short block and forget the mods until you own the car.

 

[Skye]

Where are you buying a pp1 2020 for 17.5k? I just sold a 2019 to carvana for 31.6 and the cheapest 2018+ mustang with a coyote is 25k on autotrader

At the time, I did a nationwide search at Autotrader. I do not remember how many I saw at $17,500.

You are correct: searching today, most 2020 GTs are pricing about $25K. There are a few pricing in the high teens. If the MY is moved further to the left to include 2018-2020, more examples in the high teens can be seen.

In the future, I'll take screen shots and include links.

 

[2015 Silver GT]

As is often the case, the OP starts a thread looking for advice only to never return.

 

[Hack]

What's more fragile about the gen 3?

Spray in cylinder liners are more fragile than thicker iron liners. Thin, hard coatings are never the best solution for wear surfaces. Yes, they can work ok, especially in the short term and with frequent service, but iron liners are superior. Ford cheaped out in my opinion. They save a few pennies and we get non-serviceable engine blocks.

Direct injection pumps and injectors are more likely to break on an engine that has them. Port injection is superior in simplicity, reliability and serviceability. DI is a solution for a non-existent problem.

Plastic oil pans are straight up garbage.

Gen 3 has higher compression which will increase wear. Gen 3 has a higher lift camshaft which increases wear.

 

[Garfy]

if this is really a huge problem you shouldn't be modding it like that to begin with.
replacing the engine is the only logical move in this scenario.
leave it as stock as possible.

this is why I don't bother with tunes. most of the time they're fine but you might be that 1% guy and these cars are plenty fast enough for me.

Exactly why my car is bone stock. Yes, it's got more than enough power for me as I'm in my 70's. I can still handle the car fine and I don't need 800 HP under any circumstance. After all, the "fast cars" we had in the 60's & 70's that were rated at 300+ HP under today's HP rating method would come in well under 300 HP. (That change from gross to net HP occurred in 1972; I remember having a '71 Mustang rated at 210 HP but that same engine became 170 HP in '72.)

 

[sk47]

Direct injection pumps and injectors are more likely to break on an engine that has them. Port injection is superior in simplicity, reliability and serviceability. DI is a solution for a non-existent problem.

Hello; I was corrected about this a while back. Seems the coyote has both port and DI. A member of this forum pointe such out.
I do think there is a performance advantage to DI or at least a fuel economy dvantage. will have to clear the cobwebs and try to recall exactly what.

The plasma lined cylinders apparently are questionable with regard to scratches and oil consumption. The process does save considerable weight.

May be that lower tension rings contribute to the oil consumption. Back in the late 1960's my 57 chevy with a 283 had been hit hard twice in the rear. I was in college at the time, married and had a daily driver 57 Pontiac and no money nor place to park the wrecked Chevy. Gave it to a friend who pulled the engine and built it to race at the dirt track in Claiborne County TN.
He failed to put in a drive shaft hoop and the front U joint gave way. Pole vaulted his race car.
He survived and put the engine in a 65 malibu. He had to carry a case of oil in the trunk s he had built the engine with low tension rings and loose tolerances.

The Coyote engine has oil squirters up in the block pointing up inside the cylinders is my take. That ought to help keep the cylinder lining well lubed over splash lubrication.

I may be wrong but think the spray in liners are plenty tough enough in terms of wear. I suspect the hardness may contribute to ring seating taking a while in some engines. The "weak" aspect is once damaged the lining is so thin you get into the aluminum and the cylinder cannot be bored out to clean up the lining.

I suspect manufacturers are using plastic to eeek out max MPG's with weight savings. Agencies such as EPA have been for some time been making MPG & emission standards stricter and so harder to meet.
I am with you on plastic oil pans and higher compression. I know higher lift cams in pushrod engines take more spring pressure. I am not familure enough with OH cams to know for sure but suspect so.

 

[robvas]

Spray in cylinder liners are more fragile than thicker iron liners. Thin, hard coatings are never the best solution for wear surfaces. Yes, they can work ok, especially in the short term and with frequent service, but iron liners are superior.

A little lighter, runs a little cooler, durable to 200k

 

[GL95]

At the time, I did a nationwide search at Autotrader. I do not remember how many I saw at $17,500.

You are correct: searching today, most 2020 GTs are pricing about $25K. There are a few pricing in the high teens. If the MY is moved further to the left to include 2018-2020, more examples in the high teens can be seen.

In the future, I'll take screen shots and include links.

We must be looking at a very different auto trader, I don't see what you are talking about. There is one 2018-2026 mustang GT in the country in the teens and it has 200k miles and a salvage title

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