Throttle House puts the 2020 GT500, Camaro ZL1 and Challenger Hellcat Redeye on the track

[5.4dreams]

The same people that buy the ZLE and then post questions on how to make the suspension more livable for a daily driver.

Lmao. Fact

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[martinjlm]

Yes Jim, I'm aware of the term (particular in 3D modeling/sims where I spent some time), I found the [over]use of it, again-and-again, incredibly comical, it was such a forced demonstration of "Looky what I know!".

Other people found it funny too - YMMV.

(A guy in a machine learning discussion kept using heuristics, I did the same thing, I found it equally funny ... especially given the guy's understanding and the fact I'm actually engaged in ML in the medical space for predicting traumatic injury outcomes ... Hey! Looky what I know too! )

OK, got it. I just know that in some circles, a degree in kinematics (kinesiology actually) is a fancy way of saying "I went to college to become a gym teacher". I was hoping that's not where you guys were going.

 

[Classic Lover]

Let me ask you an honest question. Why do you think 6th gen Camaro sales have struggled? The car has a great chassis, and GM offers a ton of different engines, options, price points, etc. The car has lots of technology. So what is it about the car that turns buyers away?

Because the Camaro is trying to be a Mustang and it does it a little too well. It’s got everything a mustang has, except it’s not a mustang, just look at this forum for proof. All the mustang vs Camaro threads blow sky high, The Challenger is not trying to be anything but what it is, a big strip and street muscle car. That’s why it sells well, because it’s the different option, To be fair though GM has really messed up the Camaro in the last few years, the 2019 refresh was a sad day.

 

[Minn19]

For me, the Number 1 reason is styling. I love the front clip on the ZL1, but the rest is just 'meh'. I've said it before, but the 6G Camaro would have been killer if it would have been a modern take on the '70-'72 Camaro, which is my all-time favorite design of the nameplate. The Buick Avista show car was Alpha-based and shows what might have been, and with a few tweaks to the front and rear ends toward the '70-'72 styling would have got it done. Instead we got yet another lame attempt at a '69. Looks make or break success to a large degree.

Next up is the ergonomics and visibility. I sat in one and really had no interest in a test drive after. More 'meh'.

Too bad, since all accounts point to the Camaro being an excellent car otherwise.

I too had that issue when I sat in and test drove Camaros. The visibility is an issue, but with BLIS (or whatever GM calls their system) and etc and some extended seat time it really does go away very quickly. It's not like the GT350 is a big greenhouse and easy to see out of either. Without BLIS, I was nervous to change lanes to the left every now and then as the visibility/blind spots is very poor in that car as well. The only coupe I drove with really excellent visibility was my M4.

Looks is obviously subjective and is very personal. Both rediesigns of the regular 'Stang and Camaro are hideous IMO. The GT350 is easily one of my favorite looking cars of all time if you overlook the mismatched panels, droopy ass and incorrectly installed splitter. The GT500 has to big of a grill for my taste and has a bit of a large mouth bass look to it. I get why they had to do it, but aesthetically I don't like it as much. Interior are a wash as both have very cheap materials here and there that squeak, rattle pop all the time. But, having both, I do like the Camaros interior a little bit better.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

I was just making a simple statement. People buy the PP2 because they think it's the best track option they can afford...even though they will likely never go to the track.

Similarly, there are people that buy the ZLE because of it's hype...and then have an oh shit moment the first time they take it over a set of railroad tracks.

In the end, these are the same type of people.

Funny enough, I talked to a guy with a ZL1 convertible, back when I was cross shopping them, we just kind of happened to be in the same parking lot, headed towards our cars (both convertibles) at the same time. His previous car was a ZLE!

Weird change right?

He said he was just taken in by the styling, the price was insane, but realized quickly it wasn't for him, he even went from a 6-speed to an A10, hahahaha. Nice guy, he said he had wanted a Viper, was all ready to drive a 6-speed, and found that his use was so totally different than the car's design intent, he worked out a near original price re-trade, and got into the ZL1 convertible they had on the lot that was a CPO'ed car.

 

[Hack]

This might be true if you consider GT350 to be the representation of S550. It holds its own with SS 1LE in terms of handling performance. But it is not true when you get to the volume trims like SS & GT.

The chassis of the Mustang is not changed between the different variants. They have different springs, roll bars, shocks, bushings, electronics etc. but they all have the same basic chassis. Suspension mounting points are not changed, chassis structure is not changed, chassis materials are not changed...

The Mustang tends to be set up so that it will be more compliant and comfortable than the Camaro. That is the biggest difference in the volume Mustang trims. Comfort was prioritized over performance.

The GT350 represents how the Mustang chassis performs when it is set up with a firm ride and Magneride tuning to support good track performance. The GT350 isn't overly firm in my opinion, but it is quite a bit more firm than the base Mustang.

This is where I get annoyed when people say the Alpha chassis is so great. I think they prefer the suspension set up, not the actual chassis.

I know what a great chassis feels like. Like the car is carved from one single piece of metal - regardless of how firm or soft the suspension is. The cars I've driven that felt this way were Porsches. Mustang and Camaros don't feel like that to me. They feel good, but not that good. And IMO they feel very similar to each other. One might be a little better, but not OH MY God that's amazing!!!1! better. That's what I'm saying.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

OK, got it. I just know that in some circles, a degree in kinematics (kinesiology actually) is a fancy way of saying "I went to college to become a gym teacher". I was hoping that's not where you guys were going.

Oh no, it was totally applicable to the particular discussion, I just chuckle at how people choose to engage in a conversation, (er, or around here, it's more of a "conversation" ).

 

[BmacIL]

I wonder why the GT4 racecars don't change out the integral link, when they change out all the other bushings in the suspension for monoballs.

Integral link style suspensions have been used on BMWs for decades. It's a pretty good design.

I agree it is.

The integral link has such little rubber/bending deflection that it's pretty insignificant. It's one of the most overrated parts the aftermarket has produced for this platform. The GT4 cars do have what is more or less the same as the BMR CB010 or Steeda subframe support system for the subframe, locking out the gross movement, along with all the monoballs as you mentioned.

 

[martinjlm]

The chassis of the Mustang is not changed between the different variants. They have different springs, roll bars, shocks, bushings, electronics etc. but they all have the same basic chassis. Suspension mounting points are not changed, chassis structure is not changed, chassis materials are not changed...

The Mustang tends to be set up so that it will be more compliant and comfortable than the Camaro. That is the biggest difference in the volume Mustang trims. Comfort was prioritized over performance.

The GT350 represents how the Mustang chassis performs when it is set up with a firm ride and Magneride tuning to support good track performance. The GT350 isn't overly firm in my opinion, but it is quite a bit more firm than the base Mustang.

This is where I get annoyed when people say the Alpha chassis is so great. I think they prefer the suspension set up, not the actual chassis.

I know what a great chassis feels like. Like the car is carved from one single piece of metal - regardless of how firm or soft the suspension is. The cars I've driven that felt this way were Porsches. Mustang and Camaros don't feel like that to me. They feel good, but not that good. And IMO they feel very similar to each other. One might be a little better, but not OH MY God that's amazing!!!1! better. That's what I'm saying.

So really then it's a matter of semantics. The physics of the mechanical content of the suspension versus the customer's perception of the performance of the suspension. I think most customers are going to make decisions based on perceived performance, not mechanical content. Leaving Alpha out of it for a few minutes. I drove the Bullitt. I was totally underwhelmed by its suspension performance. When it was time to turn it over to the next assigned driver I had zero angst about that. I actually found him and gave him the keys earlier than I needed to. Full disclosure, the transmission and clutch had more to do with that than the suspension. When I drove the GT350 I was looking for ways to spend more time with it. The suspension had as much to do with as anything, though the engine and transmission contributed mightily. But it was the suspension that I saw in stark contrast to the Bullitt, which is in theory the "same" chassis as the GT350? I would have no trouble believing it if someone told me they weren't remotely related.

So now I'll bring Alpha back into the discussion. ATS, CTS, and Camaro are all Alpha chassis and are all tuned differently, but there are some elements that make it clear that whomever tuned them had similar end goals in mind. ATS is slightly more aggressive than CTS (V notwithstanding) and Camaro is considerably more aggressive than both (again V not withstanding). You can feel that they are related. Even though I know Bullitt and GT350 are similarly related, if I didn't know better I'd swear they weren't. The Alpha chassis vehicles give me more of what I want in cars that I drive. Other than GT350 (haven't driven PP2 or GT500 yet) S550 doesn't do that, so when I'm ready to write a check, my preference tells me which one is "better".

 

[Big Boss]

Boss: Yep, it's a hefty sum for the Snack Pack but I was lucky to have a working career that provided for such expenditures and I'm pretty positive that this one won't be regretted.

I bet it won't! Just more I never thought in my day I would see a Mustang priced that high or an option cost that much lol

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Looks is obviously subjective and is very personal. Both rediesigns of the regular 'Stang and Camaro are hideous IMO.

The '19 Camaro was a red-headed stepchild (more or less resolved with MY20+ revisions) but I find the S550.2/MY18+ redesign really terrific - and that's not because I own one, I didn't buy it first, then think, "Oh wow, this is terrible", I own one __because__ I think it looks fantastic. Just based on looks I would've gone with something else: ZL1, some Audi S variant, maybe re-thought my desire for a 2+2 and considered another Vette, etc., (note I was shopping a convertible ...).

The tightened up front end, lowered entry line, headlamp revision just works really well with the rest of the existing design. It de-chunkies the profile quite a bit, looks more put together. As always, cars like a GT need a little aftermarket: a better wheel/tire setup (I run a 285/35, 305/35 on 20s), a few aero bits, properly selected to compliment the design - it really makes a huge difference when comparing to something like a Shelby model that is nicely setup OOTB.

Also for your totally off-topic enjoyment - my wife sent this while sitting completely stopped on A1A this morning, trying to get up to our daughter's school for a "teacher luncheon" (PTO duty):

 

[ZRacerLE]

Yes Jim, I'm aware of the term (particular in 3D modeling/sims where I spent some time), I found the [over]use of it, again-and-again, incredibly comical, it was such a forced demonstration of "Looky what I know!".

Other people found it funny too - YMMV.

(A guy in a machine learning discussion kept using heuristics, I did the same thing, I found it equally funny ... especially given the guy's understanding and the fact I'm actually engaged in ML in the medical space for predicting traumatic injury outcomes ... Hey! Looky what I know too! )

Nice! I'm an ML geek too. I have a deep learning based computer vision company, but worked in the robot kinematics , dynamics, and controls (algorithms) space for many, many years as well.

 

[kilobravo]

I never thought in my day I would see a Mustang priced that high or an option cost that much lol

Boss: I'm with you and I'm betting both numbers shocked more than a few people around here, including me. :-)

 

[Eritas]

I agree it is.

The integral link has such little rubber/bending deflection that it's pretty insignificant. It's one of the most overrated parts the aftermarket has produced for this platform. The GT4 cars do have what is more or less the same as the BMR CB010 or Steeda subframe support system for the subframe, locking out the gross movement, along with all the monoballs as you mentioned.

If solid subframe bushings is "more or less the same" then sure.

 

[Checkmate]

I think we all need to see the C7 ZR1 vs the CFTP GT500.

Both Front Engine + No Rear Seats + Track Aero + over 750hp + Automatic Option (Available for the C7 ZR1). Same philosophy.

I mean the ZL1 1LE is short 110HP from the CFTP GT500. The ZL1 1LE also has 'back seats' for what it's worth....

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