Throttle House puts the 2020 GT500, Camaro ZL1 and Challenger Hellcat Redeye on the track

[martinjlm]

I understand what you are saying. Basically my way of saying it is you have the knowledge to look at the cars and with no measurements or data, just looking at them you believe there are some things about one that is better than the other. I believe that you can do that, and I believe you are correct.

However, I still believe that the chassis of the two cars are nearly identical from a performance standpoint. Maybe in theory one looks a little better, but the actual advantage to handling is quite minor.

This might be true if you consider GT350 to be the representation of S550. It holds its own with SS 1LE in terms of handling performance. But it is not true when you get to the volume trims like SS & GT. I was able to A/B a Bullitt with my SS Convertible. The convertible should have exhibited the more compromised chassis because that's what happens when you chop the roof and compensate with heavy additional bracing. Not what I experienced. My convertible was a much tighter, much more precise package than the Bullitt. From my other test driving experiences, Bullitt is fairly representative of GT suspension and handling. This Bullitt was just the latest version of S550 I had driven up to that point.

Then the very next week I got to A/B a GT350 with my SS Convertible. The GT350 was clearly the tighter, better handling package. As expected. Very close to ZL1s that I have previously driven. The difference between the Bullitt and GT350 couldn't have been more profound. It was as if the Bullitt and the GT350 were horses born in different barns. One was a Tennessee Walking Horse, the other a pedigreed Thoroughbred. Chevy does a much better job of giving the customer a solid handling package in a high volume configuration. Ford is able to match that package, but only in limited edition higher priced products.

Sponsored

 

[MaskedRacerX]

My guess is, with better visibility and a trunk that allows for a full sized set of golf clubs 6-pack of beer.

FTFY.

I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a good deal of experience in vehicle dynamics and suspension design (racing), powertrain design and integration, vehicle test and development (OEMs).

Ahh, but how about your understanding of vehicle kinematics.

 

[BmacIL]

FTFY.



Ahh, but how about your understanding of vehicle kinematics.

His misuse of the term is funny, I'll admit.

 

[martinjlm]

FTFY.



Ahh, but how about your understanding of vehicle kinematics.

Not sure why the use of the word kinematics is odd. It is used in engineering somewhat regularly. It describes the relative motion of various parts of a system in motion, especially the dynamic relationships as different parts of the system move in different directions. Exactly what happens in vehicle suspensions (some things go up while other things go down).

 

[thill444]

This might be true if you consider GT350 to be the representation of S550. It holds its own with SS 1LE in terms of handling performance. But it is not true when you get to the volume trims like SS & GT. I was able to A/B a Bullitt with my SS Convertible. The convertible should have exhibited the more compromised chassis because that's what happens when you chop the roof and compensate with heavy additional bracing. Not what I experienced. My convertible was a much tighter, much more precise package than the Bullitt. From my other test driving experiences, Bullitt is fairly representative of GT suspension and handling. This Bullitt was just the latest version of S550 I had driven up to that point.

Then the very next week I got to A/B a GT350 with my SS Convertible. The GT350 was clearly the tighter, better handling package. As expected. Very close to ZL1s that I have previously driven. The difference between the Bullitt and GT350 couldn't have been more profound. It was as if the Bullitt and the GT350 were horses born in different barns. One was a Tennessee Walking Horse, the other a pedigreed Thoroughbred. Chevy does a much better job of giving the customer a solid handling package in a high volume configuration. Ford is able to match that package, but only in limited edition higher priced products.

I have driven them all (Mustangs) and agree with you on how Ford has setup the Bullitt and GT (including PP1). The PP2 is actually pretty close to the GT350 and more accessible on a budget. Ford just doesn't sell many of them from my observations. There are a few dealers here who just can't sell them and have big markdowns. I doubt they will order any more PP2's because the types of people who want a more aggressive handling car (with Cup 2's) is a smaller group than those that just want a more traditional GT car and these folks will likely never go to the track or an auto-x event.

 

[Minn19]

It's just BS with no evidence to back it up. People say all kinds of things, but the Mustang and Camaro perform so similarly that it is hard for me to imagine that the chassis is that different between the two.

If a reviewer says that a car has this width of tire, I believe it. If a reviewer says something about feel, I would have to trust them. It's like a faith-based comment.

I drove my GT350 to a Chevy dealer and test drove a Camaro. I didn't think the Camaro seemed better. I felt like the chassis of the GT350 was way better.

See what I mean about faith? If someone presents hard data, measurements, weights, etc. or something like that (real evidence), then I might believe that one chassis is better or worse. Until then, I think they are roughly equivalent.

I think if you take a Mustang and a Camaro with similar power plants, similar wheel rates, similar roll stiffness and similar tires, they are going to perform very similarly. I don't believe that one "chassis" is so much better that one of the cars will perform a lot better in that circumstance.

The biggest thing I noticed was less understeer in either ZL1 or ZLE compared to my stock GT350 and less flex overall stock vs stock again. As has been said it was easily fixed though. I think about $1500-2k parts/labor IIRC later with FP springs/sways and the usual Steeda stuff it was amazing. The GT350 out if the box obviously handle awesome, but when pushed on the track etc the flex in the system shows very quickly.

But, I also agree with @martinjlm that their is light years difference between a regular Mustang GT and SS Camaro/GT350. This was my own perceptions from many test drives etc in the cars as well.

 

[5.4dreams]

Let me ask you an honest question. Why do you think 6th gen Camaro sales have struggled? The car has a great chassis, and GM offers a ton of different engines, options, price points, etc. The car has lots of technology. So what is it about the car that turns buyers away?[/QUOTE]

I think the mustang is easier to like visually. I think modding also comes into play. Stock in most trims the Camaro will win, mod for mod I don't believe that's the case.

The mustang also has a much bigger fan base. Just look at the traffic on any mustang form vs Camaro, it's not even clos . I currently have a zl1 1le but my previous cars were a gt500 and mach 1. Im on the mustang form more cause there is more traffic, it's very entertaining and very helpful for track stuff.

 

[Minn19]

I have driven them all (Mustangs) and agree with you on how Ford has setup the Bullitt and GT (including PP1). The PP2 is actually pretty close to the GT350 and more accessible on a budget. Ford just doesn't sell many of them from my observations. There are a few dealers here who just can't sell them and have big markdowns. I doubt they will order any more PP2's because the types of people who want a more aggressive handling car (with Cup 2's) is a smaller group than those that just want a more traditional GT car and these folks will likely never go to the track or an auto-x event.

Nobody wants them because Ford half assed the PP2 and didn't add all of the coolers etc. Who wants a car that has Cup 2s and better handling that will go into limp mode very quickly when pushed?

 

[millhouse]

Nobody wants them because Ford half assed the PP2 and didn't add all of the coolers etc. Who wants a car that has Cup 2s and better handling that will go into limp mode very quickly when pushed?

The same people that buy the ZLE and then post questions on how to make the suspension more livable for a daily driver.

 

[Minn19]

Let me ask you an honest question. Why do you think 6th gen Camaro sales have struggled? The car has a great chassis, and GM offers a ton of different engines, options, price points, etc. The car has lots of technology. So what is it about the car that turns buyers away? The mustang also has a much bigger fan base. Just look at the traffic on any mustang form vs Camaro, it's not even clos . I currently have a zl1 1le but my previous cars were a gt500 and mach 1. Im on the mustang form more cause there is more traffic, it's very entertaining and very helpful for track stuff.

Dunno, I'm not saying the Camaro is the overall best product of the two when I say this, but the best product doesn't always win the sales for whatever reason. If that were the case everyone car wise would be driving Hondas and Toyotas until the wheels fall off compared to other models, especially US cars. But, people like choices and make them for whatever reason.

 

[Minn19]

The same people that buy the ZLE and then post questions on how to make the suspension more livable for a daily driver.

I'm not sure why you said that to me, but I don't get that either.

 

[millhouse]

I'm not sure why you said that to me, but I don't get that either.

I was just making a simple statement. People buy the PP2 because they think it's the best track option they can afford...even though they will likely never go to the track.

Similarly, there are people that buy the ZLE because of it's hype...and then have an oh shit moment the first time they take it over a set of railroad tracks.

In the end, these are the same type of people.

 

[Minn19]

I was just making a simple statement. People buy the PP2 because they think it's the best track option they can afford...even though they will likely never go to the track.

Similarly, there are people that buy the ZLE because of it's hype...and then have an oh shit moment the first time they take it over a set of railroad tracks.

In the end, these are the same type of people.

Agreed and both end up being very pissed off and disappointed in their purchases. Gotta do research people, I know I've learned the hard/expensive way a couple of times.

 

[Strokerswild]

Let me ask you an honest question. Why do you think 6th gen Camaro sales have struggled? The car has a great chassis, and GM offers a ton of different engines, options, price points, etc. The car has lots of technology. So what is it about the car that turns buyers away?

For me, the Number 1 reason is styling. I love the front clip on the ZL1, but the rest is just 'meh'. I've said it before, but the 6G Camaro would have been killer if it would have been a modern take on the '70-'72 Camaro, which is my all-time favorite design of the nameplate. The Buick Avista show car was Alpha-based and shows what might have been, and with a few tweaks to the front and rear ends toward the '70-'72 styling would have got it done. Instead we got yet another lame attempt at a '69. Looks make or break success to a large degree.

Next up is the ergonomics and visibility. I sat in one and really had no interest in a test drive after. More 'meh'.

Too bad, since all accounts point to the Camaro being an excellent car otherwise.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Not sure why the use of the word kinematics is odd. It is used in engineering somewhat regularly. It describes the relative motion of various parts of a system in motion, especially the dynamic relationships as different parts of the system move in different directions. Exactly what happens in vehicle suspensions (some things go up while other things go down).

Yes Jim, I'm aware of the term (particular in 3D modeling/sims where I spent some time), I found the [over]use of it, again-and-again, incredibly comical, it was such a forced demonstration of "Looky what I know!".

Other people found it funny too - YMMV.

(A guy in a machine learning discussion kept using heuristics, I did the same thing, I found it equally funny ... especially given the guy's understanding and the fact I'm actually engaged in ML in the medical space for predicting traumatic injury outcomes ... Hey! Looky what I know too! )

 

[Eritas]

I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a good deal of experience in vehicle dynamics and suspension design (racing), powertrain design and integration, vehicle test and development (OEMs). This is my assessment with the knowledge and tools I've used before. Other sources who worked on both platforms (@KellTrac for instance) agree.

Overall the biggest difference is out back, where the integral link package is quite good for a variety of platforms (shared on Fusion, Continental and at least another vehicle or two) and allows for straightforward packaging. It's just not as optimal. The biggest issues are fixable getting rid of the the excessive compliance and rubber-induced spring rate.

I wonder why the GT4 racecars don't change out the integral link, when they change out all the other bushings in the suspension for monoballs.

Integral link style suspensions have been used on BMWs for decades. It's a pretty good design.

Sponsored