FFTEC's EFR Turbo System: ~24PSI Dyno Numbers

[Juben]

Have you guys looked at the mazda speed 3 platform for inspiration for the HPFP situation? I see that companies were able to upgrade the internals on the mazda HPFP, and since they are both cam driven, I don't see why the same can't be done on the Ford pump. I'm guessing the injectors might be an issue as well? Everyone starts losing power at 5500 RPM, and even in this boosted application it is still happening. I'm guessing this is because while the injectors have enough capacity to inject at these levels, it just can't flow whatever the level of fuel that is needed. Can you give some insight? Because I'm about ready to go take apart my HPFP to see the size of the internals and see if the mazda stuff will fit.

If you do that, please make a specific post for it that I can subscribe to. I'm very interested in the fueling issues, ceiling, etc.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Sponsored

 

[Juben]

Didn't I read something from MAP saying they thought that the drop in power at 5500 rpm was a tuning problem that they, MAP, was trying to work out?

They are actively working on that to see if there's something they can do to improve it.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[cosmo]

Didn't I read something from MAP saying they thought that the drop in power at 5500 rpm was a tuning problem that they, MAP, was trying to work out?

I'm thinking it's either fueling limitations like I explained, or a parameter in the ECU that restricts power past 5500 RPM because of some mechanical limitation in the engine itself i.e. the rods don't do well durability-wise spinning that fast with power.

 

[Airflow]

Have you guys looked at the mazda speed 3 platform for inspiration for the HPFP situation? I see that companies were able to upgrade the internals on the mazda HPFP, and since they are both cam driven, I don't see why the same can't be done on the Ford pump. I'm guessing the injectors might be an issue as well? Everyone starts losing power at 5500 RPM, and even in this boosted application it is still happening. I'm guessing this is because while the injectors have enough capacity to inject at these levels, it just can't flow whatever the level of fuel that is needed. Can you give some insight? Because I'm about ready to go take apart my HPFP to see the size of the internals and see if the mazda stuff will fit.

If it is a fuel capacity/flow issue, wouldn't that be noticed by a lean air/fuel ratio?

 

[cosmo]

If it is a fuel capacity/flow issue, wouldn't that be noticed by a lean air/fuel ratio?

That's the weird thing, the stock maps goes super rich past 5500 RPM, down to 11:1 air/fuel. Just adds to the confusion.

 

[Airflow]

Strange. If the turbo is upgraded and pushing more air, the stock head has enough room to flow the additional air (or does it?) and there is enough fuel to cause a rich condition, then this sounds like something other than HPFP. An AFR of 11:1 is on the rich side, but doesn't seem bad for a boosted car; therefore an over rich condition doesn't seem to be the culprit. I am assuming timing is not being retarded past 5,500?

 

[David@FFtec]

Ah yes, the fuel system mystery...
Yes we looked into the HPFP several months ago, also looked at the MS3 pump upgrades. They're different. It was too early to upgrade the hardware tho since there was a good amount of fuel hidden in the tune. BTW the numbers we hit on the dyno are with a completely stock fuel system. The tune is not stock!

I'd also like to point out again that we made peak power at 6200 rpm. Yes there's a bump at 5500, it's probably due to the intake manifold design and the way it interacts with the head port shape.

 

[cosmo]

Ah yes, the fuel system mystery...
Yes we looked into the HPFP several months ago, also looked at the MS3 pump upgrades. They're different. It was too early to upgrade the hardware tho since there was a good amount of fuel hidden in the tune. BTW the numbers we hit on the dyno are with a completely stock fuel system. The tune is not stock!

I'd also like to point out again that we made peak power at 6200 rpm. Yes there's a bump at 5500, it's probably due to the intake manifold design and the way it interacts with the head port shape.

Interesting, that's good to hear! Hmm, it'll be fun to see how this shakes out. I wonder why so many tunes are losing so much power at the top end, that points to the turbo being too small to flow at higher power up top. Probably a lot of overheating issues as well that pulls timing, but the turbo probably needs to be a little bit bigger to hit that higher power.

 

[EcoSnake]

Ah yes, the fuel system mystery...
Yes we looked into the HPFP several months ago, also looked at the MS3 pump upgrades. They're different. It was too early to upgrade the hardware tho since there was a good amount of fuel hidden in the tune. BTW the numbers we hit on the dyno are with a completely stock fuel system. The tune is not stock!

I'd also like to point out again that we made peak power at 6200 rpm. Yes there's a bump at 5500, it's probably due to the intake manifold design and the way it interacts with the head port shape.

Any way to get rid of the bump? 5500rpm is high compared to other dips ive seen. Must flow well.

 

[dragonacc]

Fuel upgrade hardware is designed and prototyped. However the hardware is the easy part, the designs pull twice the current as the OEM fuel pump config. So the hard part is having to determine how to best drive the increased solenoid load.

Can you explain the last sentence better? Are you saying it becomes a mapping problem?

 

[Juben]

EcoSnake, are you talking about a LPFP in the tank? The HPFP is cam driven and has historically been the limitation on the EB fueling systems.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[EcoSnake]

EcoSnake, are you talking about a LPFP in the tank? The HPFP is cam driven and has historically been the limitation on the EB fueling systems.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Solenoid Injectors. Don't want to thread jack. I meant that post for a private message and replied in the wrong tab.

:gossip:

 

[Optimus]

Thanks for posting the dyno's. Have you done any 0-60 or 1/4 mile runs? When do you expect to have a turbo kit ready to sell and what would it cost?

 

[fusion13]

I think you guys should take a look into the 2.0l and how they are solving the fueling problem. This HPFP is cam driven much like the MZR engine however it is not as easy to replace the internals as it was for them and even if you do the bump in fueling may still not be enough to satisfy your power goals. The solution that the 2.0l guys have come up with is a hybrid port injection system (5th, 6th port injectors or full direct port injection system) This has a couple benefits one it allows you to have a higher fueling ceiling and two it helps clean the valves and prevent carbon build up. I see a lot of people looking at the rods saying this is a big problem and it may be however on the 2.0l EB (very very similar) the rods looked just as small and have been shown to hold very good power. What ended up failing (on cars not running a supplemental fueling system) was the piston ring lands. They just could not take the heat and over time they eventually chipped off. This problem was solved (for the most part) by supplemental fueling systems such as WMI or port fuel injection! This also eliminated the fuel lean spot we would get around 4500 RPM causing cylinders 2 and 4 to knock and heat up! There is a growing number of stock block/stock internal 2.0l EB over 400whp-450whp looking like they are happy!

 

[cosmo]

Who currently has a kit for the PFI system? Unless they're tapping the ground for the DI system to activate it, I don't see how they can control the PFI system without an expensive third party controller. Hopefully you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Sponsored