10R80 3-4 shift went into neutral

[TXGTPig]

I've got a strange one, and I can't find anything on it. I picked up a '21 GT A10 car with 37K miles on it. I believe I'm the third owner. It is stock, minus a CAI, h-pipe and tune. Shortly after acquiring the car, I was doing a U-turn under an overpass. As I come to the end of the U-turn, I see my opportunity to merge into traffic. However, it's going to require some throttle. I'm doing maybe 10mph. Car is in S and I'm letting the ecu/tcu do the shifting for me. I mat it to the floor, WOT. Car shifts into 2nd, shifts into 3rd, then when it "shifts" into 4th, it's like it goes into neutral. It bounces off the limiter a couple of times, and then I hear a bang, a lot of shaking, and well...cylinder one end cap let loose. This all happened within maybe 1-2 seconds. I didn't even have time to process WTF was going on. When it did this, I looked down at the dashboard, and it showed 3rd gear. Needless to say, a new short block was in the future.

So let's fast forward, new short block, break-in, now I'm at about 1,000 miles. Only mods are CAI, H-pipe, catted LTH, and tune from my local shop that did the work. I kid you not. The exact location and the same scenario as above. However, this time I only gave it 1/2 throttle. Goes to "shift" into 4th and it's neutral. This time, however, since it's shifting at 5,500ish, I have time to process and let off the throttle before it bounces off the limiter. RPM' come down, I apply enough throttle to maintain the current speed, and all is fine. Again, when it happened, I looked at the dashboard, and it was showing 3rd.

Previously I had an '18 GT MT82, so I'm new to the A10, but not the S550. When I first got the car, I thought..."hmmm, this shifts strangely." However, after researching, I found it was normal and nothing to be alarmed about. I did read that a lot of the A10 transmissions came underfilled, and thought that might be some of the quirkiness. I checked the level, and it seemed low, so I bought the Motorcraft ULV and a filter to do a drain and fill. However, event one happened, and I didn't get to do it. I did have them change it when they replaced the short block, and the quirkiness has gone away. I'm not sure if it's the new fluid and filter, or the fact that the car sat without a battery for almost 2 months.

With all this, I've run it through the gears under WOT with no issues at all before the first event and the second event. I'm racking my brain as to what this could be. I don't believe it's the tune, as the first event was with one tuner (who is highly recommended and liked around here) and the second happened with the tune from my local shop. I've used this shop in the past and have plenty of faith in them. Any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I hope this all makes sense.

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[Crew4991]

Sorry OP, I can't really help here as I usually buy the cars with 3 pedals and tell the car when to shift BUT I can help with some giggles...

Back in college I had some cheap ass buddies that drove absolute buckets and they would throw the automatic transmission in neutral while driving to coast in order to "save money on fuel."

Very dangerous and very stupid to do but hey, maybe your 10 speed is trying to duplicate this idea to help boost your fuel economy!

 

[TXGTPig]

Sorry OP, I can't really help here as I usually buy the cars with 3 pedals and tell the car when to shift

I'm honestly kind of missing my '18 GT MT82 car right about now.

 

[Crew4991]

I'm sure folks with knowledge about this will chime in but if I had to speculate on the situation there was probably an issue when the transmission was shifting 3 - 4, somehow could not get into 4, therefore defaulted to neutral to protect itself from further issues?
Just speaking logically here but again, I don't have much experience on this.

@MAGS1 @Skye either of you guys have any insight on this for OP?

 

[MAGS1]

Do you notice any issues driving in D? When driving in S, will it let you shift into 4th, 5th, etc with the paddles? If it’s isolated to just being in S and letting the car shift on its own, there’s probably an issue with the shift logic and might need a reset. If it’s happening in all scenarios, you probably have an issue with the trans itself. Could be a solenoid issue, could be the actual gears themselves, maybe a clutch issue.

@Cobra Jet, Phil anything additional you can think of here?

 

[Crew4991]

Do you notice any issues driving in D? When driving in S, will it let you shift into 4th, 5th, etc with the paddles? If it’s isolated to just being in S and letting the car shift on its own, there’s probably an issue with the shift logic and might need a reset. If it’s happening in all scenarios, you probably have an issue with the trans itself. Could be a solenoid issue, could be the actual gears themselves, maybe a clutch issue.

@Cobra Jet, Phil anything additional you can think of here?

That is a good point! It could just be a pesky solenoid!
Think a solenoid replacement is still covered under the powertrain warranty?

 

[MAGS1]

That is a good point! It could just be a pesky solenoid!
Think a solenoid replacement is still covered under the powertrain warranty?

Maybe? Depends on the dealer and what they’re willing to push through. OP should not make any mention of a tune, at all, if he wants to try to push a warranty claim. If one of the clutches or gears is damaged, he’ll probably be on his own dime because I’ll bet most dealers will check for a tune at that point. Ford’s had enough issues with the A10 that they’ll try to find a way to deny a replacement claim if they can. A tune will make it super easy for them to reject the claim

 

[TXGTPig]

Do you notice any issues driving in D? When driving in S, will it let you shift into 4th, 5th, etc with the paddles? If it’s isolated to just being in S and letting the car shift on its own, there’s probably an issue with the shift logic and might need a reset. If it’s happening in all scenarios, you probably have an issue with the trans itself. Could be a solenoid issue, could be the actual gears themselves, maybe a clutch issue.

@Cobra Jet, Phil anything additional you can think of here?

Other than the two times mentioned above, the transmission shifts completely fine through all the gears. Regardless of whether I'm in D, S, or S and manually shift myself. The U-turn is a "sweeping" left. So maybe the 3-4 solenoid is starving for fluid? However, if this were the case, I would imagine there would be way more talk about this, especially amongst guys who track the car.

 

[Skye]

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...tions-to-harsh-or-no-shift-conditions.135463/

Above is a 10R80 thread @Cobra Jet has built over time.

I saw the fluid was checked, the trans then serviced when the engine work was being done.

I think a good step would be to baseline the adaptive learning tables in the transmission. These can be cleared via Ford process or FORScan, but with the tune, I'd want to confirm with the tuner first, and consult him to see if their shop is making any trans-specific adjustments. I'd be curious how the system works with the logic at its initial default settings, then learn anew.

 

[MAGS1]

Other than the two times mentioned above, the transmission shifts completely fine through all the gears. Regardless of whether I'm in D, S, or S and manually shift myself. The U-turn is a "sweeping" left. So maybe the 3-4 solenoid is starving for fluid? However, if this were the case, I would imagine there would be way more talk about this, especially amongst guys who track the car.

Yeah that’s pretty odd, especially since it’s only happened the two times. I guess I would just chalk it up something quirky, although it cost you a block the first time. If it were repeating in a certain drive mode, then we could start to pinpoint a little bit more. It may be a solenoid but again, if it’s only happened the two times, it’s probably not the cause. Best course of action might just be to reset the shift tables (it’s an adaptive transmission so it’s constantly learning how you drive and its shift tables adjust as it learns). I believe there’s a thread that details how to do it on your own, otherwise any dealer can do it for you (I’m sure with a few attached).

 

[TXGTPig]

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...tions-to-harsh-or-no-shift-conditions.135463/

Above is a 10R80 thread @Cobra Jet has built over time.

I saw the fluid was checked, the trans then serviced when the engine work was being done.

I think a good step would be to baseline the adaptive learning tables in the transmission. These can be cleared via Ford process or FORScan, but with the tune, I'd want to confirm with the tuner first, and consult him to see if their shop is making any trans-specific adjustments. I'd be curious how the system works with the logic working at its initial default settings, then learn anew.

So that's the strange thing. It happened on two different tunes, from different tuners. The first time was tuner A, and yes, they made changes to the TCU. Like I mentioned, that tuner comes highly recommended around here, so I don't believe it was the tune.

The second time around was after my local shop, which I've dealt with in the past and have confidence in, did the short block. I had them tune it and told him to be conservative, as I want reliability and safety over numbers. I'll reach out to him and see if he changed anything in the tcu, however, I will say his tune shifts closer to "stock."

 

[Qcman17]

This has to be the first time I’ve read on here of an auto losing a block caused by a money shift. I didn’t think it was possible and shouldn’t be.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Do you notice any issues driving in D? When driving in S, will it let you shift into 4th, 5th, etc with the paddles? If it’s isolated to just being in S and letting the car shift on its own, there’s probably an issue with the shift logic and might need a reset. If it’s happening in all scenarios, you probably have an issue with the trans itself. Could be a solenoid issue, could be the actual gears themselves, maybe a clutch issue.

@Cobra Jet, Phil anything additional you can think of here?

This is probably the very first thread about a 10R80 “money shift” that a I have seen on this site.

Seeing that the car (10R80) is exhibiting the same signs (again), I would surely get the car into a Service Center because
(1) this is very unusual
(2) you already blew your motor once because of the issue
and
(3) you don’t want to blow the engine again, unless of course you just have an endless stream of money trees…. LOL…. <sarcasm>

Have you tried to pull codes from the vehicle to see if any codes have been stored in the PCM or the TCM? I would get codes pulled.

This thread (linked from the other main 10R80 thread posted previously) contains the 10R80 TSB’s. The issue you have sort of sounds like either a clutch drum issue or valve body…. Hard to say which it is or could be, but go through this thread and review the TSB’s that sound closest to your 10R80 experiences.
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/2018-10r80-a10-most-recent-tsb’s-in-here.102918/

Now back to taking the car in for service. If the vehicle has a tune, they will know due to stored key counts. Even if you wipe the PCM and put the As Built tune back into it, they will still know the PCM was “tampered with” because the key counts will be insanely low…. There isn’t any way around this fact…. Although the trans is separate from the engine (engine tune), it’s still part of the “Powertrain” Warranty of 5yr/60k, whichever come first. If you’re out of warranty either by the factory Powertrain or an extended warranty, then a tune won’t matter as the cost to repair will be out of pocket…

This is me, and no offense, but if the 10R80 was the cause of the original engine failure, I would have had that trans looked at during the engine R&R for sure….

One other note too:
When the 10R80 is in Trans Mode “S” (the trans gear selector is manually dropped down and put into “S” for Sport) AND the Driver touches the paddle shifter to do an initial upshift, the car will NOT auto upshift at all into the next gear and the Driver can rev the engine to the point of hitting the rev limiter…. With that said, I’ve never heard of a 10R80 dumping to neutral from an upshift (auto upshift or a manual driver applied upshift).

I’m not calling BS on the situation nor am I saying it can’t happen, but it’s definitely a first on this site. I would like to know if there’s stored codes of any type and the findings from the trans service if you take it in.

 

[MAGS1]

This is probably the very first thread about a 10R80 “money shift” that a I have seen on this site.

Seeing that the car (10R80) is exhibiting the same signs (again), I would surely get the car into a Service Center because
(1) this is very unusual
(2) you already blew your motor once because of the issue
and
(3) you don’t want to blow the engine again, unless of course you just have an endless stream of money trees…. LOL…. <sarcasm>

Have you tried to pull codes from the vehicle to see if any codes have been stored in the PCM or the TCM? I would get codes pulled.

This thread (linked from the other main 10R80 thread posted previously) contains the 10R80 TSB’s. The issue you have sort of sounds like either a clutch drum issue or valve body…. Hard to say which it is or could be, but go through this thread and review the TSB’s that sound closest to your 10R80 experiences.
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/2018-10r80-a10-most-recent-tsb’s-in-here.102918/

Now back to taking the car in for service. If the vehicle has a tune, they will know due to stored key counts. Even if you wipe the PCM and put the As Built tune back into it, they will still know the PCM was “tampered with” because the key counts will be insanely low…. There isn’t any way around this fact…. Although the trans is separate from the engine (engine tune), it’s still part of the “Powertrain” Warranty of 5yr/60k, whichever come first. If you’re out of warranty either by the factory Powertrain or an extended warranty, then a tune won’t matter as the cost to repair will be out of pocket…

This is me, and no offense, but if the 10R80 was the cause of the original engine failure, I would have had that trans looked at during the engine R&R for sure….

One other note too:
When the 10R80 is in Trans Mode “S” (the trans gear selector is manually dropped down and put into “S” for Sport) AND the Driver touches the paddle shifter to do an initial upshift, the car will NOT auto upshift at all into the next gear and the Driver can rev the engine to the point of hitting the rev limiter…. With that said, I’ve never heard of a 10R80 dumping to neutral from an upshift (auto upshift or a manual driver applied upshift).

I’m not calling BS on the situation nor am I saying it can’t happen, but it’s definitely a first on this site. I would like to know if there’s stored codes of any type and the findings from the trans service if you take it in.

Yeah I’m really at a loss as to where the OP should try to start, other than getting it in somewhere to have it checked out. It’s odd that it’s only happened the 2 times as well, in almost an identical scenario. I would think if there was something going on with the trans, it would be repeating the issue more frequently.

Even in a scenario where OP was using the paddles then didn’t shift any further, it would (or should) just bounce off the limiter until the car protects itself and goes into limp mode. To have it drop into N (or what OP felt like was N) doesn’t seem normal to me. If I had to guess, a dealer or transmission shop is probably going to have to open it up and see what the insides look like.

 

[engineermike]

This is interesting.

My first thought was that I doubt it broke an "end cap" and destroyed the short block from going into neutral and hitting the limiter. The stock tune, assuming the tuner didn't totally screw it up, hits a soft limiter (throttle) then hard limiter (spark cut) well below the point where engine damage should happen. More on this later...

The 3-4 shift is accomplished by releasing clutch E and applying clutch F. On the shift, if both are applied at the same time, it's called "tie up", and if both are released at the same time, it's called "flare". In almost every shift, there is a time period called the "Torque Transfer Phase", where both the oncoming and offgoing clutches are partially engaged. The torque phase ramping up of the oncoming clutch, F in this case, and ramping down of the offgoing clutch, E in this case, is tightly specified and controlled in the calibration. I'm not saying the tuner didn't mess this up but this part of the transmission tune is complicated, and most don't understand how it works. Furthermore, you can make some pretty drastic changes to these values and it still won't generally cause noticable flare or tie-up, plus there really isn't much incentive to tune these values. As such, most tuners don't dare mess with it for fear of messing it up. I really doubt this is a tune issue...but it never ceases to surprise me how bad some aftermarket tunes are so I wouldn't 100% rule it out.

The engine damage part got me thinking. The rev limiter can only work if engine power is what is causing the rpm to increase. In something like a manual trans, downshifting to too low of a gear can cause over-rev'ing and the rev limiter can't do anything about it. Well, it just so happens that if you release both E and F clutches on the 3-4 shift (typically a flare state), it doesn't go to neutral; it goes to 2nd. So if E releases and F is slow to engage, it goes from 3rd to 2nd gear. Based on this and the nature of the rev limiter, it sounds more like it's a slow engaging F clutch.

It's a known issue that some of these solenoids stick. I've experienced flares that occur only at mid torque levels, theorizing that at higher torques or WOT, the higher electrical current applied to the solenoid overcomes the sticky part. Or maybe its the dreaded CDF drum bushing....I don't know enough about the specific symptoms of this one to say if it's a possibility.

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