Charging System Service Now - Argh

[5doorsoffury]

You’re just wrong on every point.
The ATX 20 and 30 do not have an internal BMS…only the Restart series of batteries. And you can charge AG batts with a CTEK lithium charger, which they recommend and sell on their website.

I Got my info from the Faq ON THERE OWN WEBSITE would you like me to give you the link since you cant read
alos its a lithium its has a internal bms only a complete moron would link a Lead Acid charging system can charge a lipo with out a built in BMS for the LIPO. go back to acting like a karen in the wheels falling off thread with your kona buddy

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[Evolvd]

I Got my info from the Faq ON THERE OWN WEBSITE would you like me to give you the link since you cant read
alos its a lithium its has a internal bms only a complete moron would link a Lead Acid charging system can charge a lipo with out a built in BMS for the LIPO. go back to acting like a karen in the wheels falling off thread with your kona buddy

I don’t know what’s more entertaining, your complete lack of attention to detail, or your insistence on putting your foot in your mouth. Show me where I said anything about a lead-acid charger? In fact you quoted me saying “lithium charger” lol, and you say I can’t read? You’re a special kind of stupid.
The only thing wrong I said was the 20/30 didn’t have an internal BMS. I meant to say they didn’t have issues with the Mustang’s internal BMS unlike the Restart Batteries.

Thank you for playing

p.s. wonderful grammar and spelling you have there. Next time you want to insult someone at least proofread your moronic responses

 

[Egparson202]

@ChipG - Here’s another avenue of investigation if you’re still having trouble:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/5th-alternator-going-on-i-really-need-some-help.118262/

 

[Angrey]

While I agree that SOME people haven't had problems with their ATX20 and the proper tender, I have.

I initially purchased an AG (with restart). Didn't open the package for months and received it and opened it to find it was cracked on top. (lesson learned, always open every purchase immediately when you're assembling parts for a bid. By the time I had opened it, was way too late to credibly put in a claim to AG). Nonetheless, I tried to run it, ran into problems, then found the novels on here about the issues with the Ford BMS and the AG batteries with restart.

Then I bought an ATX20 (no restart). I went through the whole war/peace novel, did the Forscan battery reset, ran a tender each night (sold on AG's website specifically for their batteries).

For the most part, with small trips or jaunts, I rarely had any issues. A couple of times an error would pop up, but it almost seemed random in nature (i.e. I could go several small trips with no error and then have one and go several small trips with no errors and have another).

Then the longer trips. On long sustained cruises, I would stop for fuel and the car would struggle/lurch (as if low charge) to start, making me almost question whether I should continue or it was going to leave me stranded when I got there and turned it off (as I didn't bring my specific charger with me).

Then, weirdly, it would start, but some of the alternate systems like the stereo would not come on.

Finished that trip with no issues (biting my nails when I started the car to return home).

Then this last trip, did something similar where it struggled after a long sustained drive. I noticed that while cruising the system voltage would be in the 12.7-12.8 range (which is either the BMS way of reserving efficiency OR it thinks the battery is overcharged or has more than enough charge). Then after struggling to start, for the first few minutes it would jump up to 13.5+ (as if to recognize that it needs to recharge the battery) but after a few minutes it would drop back down.

The final straw was at the end of that trip, I had to park overnight and leave in the a.m. to drop the car off. I was parked too far away from my parents nearest outdoor outlet to put the tender on. Came out the next day and not only was the car dead, I couldn't even open the trunk or the doors.

I'm done. I think AG makes a fine product and there's nothing wrong with their batteries, but the Ford BMS system just can't accurately recognize when the battery is charged or close to being below voltage.

I went to an Optima red top (I also have a relocation kit so I'm not constrained by the small 96 series battery).

In fairness, I have an aftermarket fuel system (however my total draw for pumps is less than the OE pumps at full tilt) and a 300W (nothing crazy) amp for the stereo system. I also have a pretty big draw on the pierberg 400 intercooler pump.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the AG batteries do NOT work well enough for my uses/setup. Maybe others who don't have higher electrical draw can survive, but if my car can't even go a single night without tender without being doornail dead, I'm done.

The reality is that the AG batteries work, and maybe the work just well enough for track sessions or for limited trips, but on longer trips (perhaps combined with my higher vehicle total load) it just doesn't work well enough for me to keep it.

Can you run an AG if you put it on a tender each and every time you turn off the car (yes, even with added accessories). But in the end, the ONLY way it's ever going to work as well as the OE style battery is if AG puts some sort of voltage regulator/logic on their units to trick the BMS into charging adequately when it should.

Just my feedback and thoughts. Maybe it works for you, but I tried (twice) and no bueno and no thanks. I'll bite the bullet and add back the 25 lbs.

 

[WItoTX]

While I agree that SOME people haven't had problems with their ATX20 and the proper tender, I have.

I initially purchased an AG (with restart). Didn't open the package for months and received it and opened it to find it was cracked on top. (lesson learned, always open every purchase immediately when you're assembling parts for a bid. By the time I had opened it, was way too late to credibly put in a claim to AG). Nonetheless, I tried to run it, ran into problems, then found the novels on here about the issues with the Ford BMS and the AG batteries with restart.

Then I bought an ATX20 (no restart). I went through the whole war/peace novel, did the Forscan battery reset, ran a tender each night (sold on AG's website specifically for their batteries).

For the most part, with small trips or jaunts, I rarely had any issues. A couple of times an error would pop up, but it almost seemed random in nature (i.e. I could go several small trips with no error and then have one and go several small trips with no errors and have another).

Then the longer trips. On long sustained cruises, I would stop for fuel and the car would struggle/lurch (as if low charge) to start, making me almost question whether I should continue or it was going to leave me stranded when I got there and turned it off (as I didn't bring my specific charger with me).

Then, weirdly, it would start, but some of the alternate systems like the stereo would not come on.

Finished that trip with no issues (biting my nails when I started the car to return home).

Then this last trip, did something similar where it struggled after a long sustained drive. I noticed that while cruising the system voltage would be in the 12.7-12.8 range (which is either the BMS way of reserving efficiency OR it thinks the battery is overcharged or has more than enough charge). Then after struggling to start, for the first few minutes it would jump up to 13.5+ (as if to recognize that it needs to recharge the battery) but after a few minutes it would drop back down.

The final straw was at the end of that trip, I had to park overnight and leave in the a.m. to drop the car off. I was parked too far away from my parents nearest outdoor outlet to put the tender on. Came out the next day and not only was the car dead, I couldn't even open the trunk or the doors.

I'm done. I think AG makes a fine product and there's nothing wrong with their batteries, but the Ford BMS system just can't accurately recognize when the battery is charged or close to being below voltage.

I went to an Optima red top (I also have a relocation kit so I'm not constrained by the small 96 series battery).

In fairness, I have an aftermarket fuel system (however my total draw for pumps is less than the OE pumps at full tilt) and a 300W (nothing crazy) amp for the stereo system. I also have a pretty big draw on the pierberg 400 intercooler pump.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the AG batteries do NOT work well enough for my uses/setup. Maybe others who don't have higher electrical draw can survive, but if my car can't even go a single night without tender without being doornail dead, I'm done.

The reality is that the AG batteries work, and maybe the work just well enough for track sessions or for limited trips, but on longer trips (perhaps combined with my higher vehicle total load) it just doesn't work well enough for me to keep it.

Can you run an AG if you put it on a tender each and every time you turn off the car (yes, even with added accessories). But in the end, the ONLY way it's ever going to work as well as the OE style battery is if AG puts some sort of voltage regulator/logic on their units to trick the BMS into charging adequately when it should.

Just my feedback and thoughts. Maybe it works for you, but I tried (twice) and no bueno and no thanks. I'll bite the bullet and add back the 25 lbs.

I could copy and paste this for my own car. The mag ride uses a ton more power then folks realize. I think if you went to the R dampers, you could potentially get by with an ATX-20 or ATX-30, but I wouldn't mess with it.

 

[honeybadger]

I could copy and paste this for my own car. The mag ride uses a ton more power then folks realize. I think if you went to the R dampers, you could potentially get by with an ATX-20 or ATX-30, but I wouldn't mess with it.

Are you sure - the wiring going to the dampers is 20awg and the module is quite small too - I think 16awg max?

@ChipG - sorry if you already said this, but have you swapped in a second OEM alternator? If not that and you've verified every ground in the car is tight, I'd assume it's the wiring harness.

 

[ChipG]

I swapped alternators with no change in behavior. I have an engine wiring harness sitting on my bench now waiting to install. @Egparson202 , I hope I don't have to chase other harnesses too, but thanks for the lead. I'll let y'all know if the engine harness does the trick.

 

[WItoTX]

Are you sure - the wiring going to the dampers is 20awg and the module is quite small too - I think 16awg max?

@ChipG - sorry if you already said this, but have you swapped in a second OEM alternator? If not that and you've verified every ground in the car is tight, I'd assume it's the wiring harness.

Yes, I just put it in poor context. I run a DSC though too. That DSC has been turned way up, so there is serious electricity (relative to stock) being pushed through the dampers (using the full 0-1600 mA/damper in a matter of a split second). Add that to the Power Steering, ABS, TC/Advancetrac, then stereo, AC/heat, fuel pumps, etc...I think the GT350 is just "at the limit" for battery demand, and the ATX-20 doesn't have the juice to handle those high, instantaneous draws.

I did the math at one point to confirm the actual electrical draw of all systems, and it was a way bigger number than I ever expected. So then I put in a RedTop, and I've not had the issue since. Wish I would have saved that spreadsheet.

I've also spoken to a couple guys closely affiliated with DSC (I'd argue they know more than DSC actually knows on how the tuner works), and one of them actually had a harness burn up in a car because of the LiPo. I didn't ask how he arrived at that conclusion, but he builds cars that are tracked all over the US, and I tend to believe him. Actually, he's out of Austin IIRC. Anyways, all have highly recommended lead batteries because of the electrical draw.

Anyways, I know I am just an anecdotal story teller. But I know the Red Top did the trick, and I've had none of the issues I did with the LiPo. I saved the LiPo for the winch on my trailer.

 

[honeybadger]

Yes, I just put it in poor context. I run a DSC though too. That DSC has been turned way up, so there is serious electricity (relative to stock) being pushed through the dampers (using the full 0-1600 mA/damper in a matter of a split second). Add that to the Power Steering, ABS, TC/Advancetrac, then stereo, AC/heat, fuel pumps, etc...I think the GT350 is just "at the limit" for battery demand, and the ATX-20 doesn't have the juice to handle those high, instantaneous draws.

I did the math at one point to confirm the actual electrical draw of all systems, and it was a way bigger number than I ever expected. So then I put in a RedTop, and I've not had the issue since. Wish I would have saved that spreadsheet.

I've also spoken to a couple guys closely affiliated with DSC (I'd argue they know more than DSC actually knows on how the tuner works), and one of them actually had a harness burn up in a car because of the LiPo. I didn't ask how he arrived at that conclusion, but he builds cars that are tracked all over the US, and I tend to believe him. Actually, he's out of Austin IIRC. Anyways, all have highly recommended lead batteries because of the electrical draw.

Anyways, I know I am just an anecdotal story teller. But I know the Red Top did the trick, and I've had none of the issues I did with the LiPo. I saved the LiPo for the winch on my trailer.

I think I'm following on everything but the LiPo not having the juice. LiPO typically can output more current than the OEM. Isn't the OEM only like 390 CCAs? I know the AG LiPO I use is 780CCA. It can output more current, just not as long is my understanding. I am far from an expert, tho.

I did a fair amount of testing for AG and while I never had ongoing issues with it, we did see some weird stuff in the logs - spikes of 15.6v, etc. The general consensus was that the Ford BMS really isn't a huge fan of LiPOs. Setting the BMS setting to Ford GT helped since the GT uses LiPOs.

In regarding to the issues OP is having - I had the same issues back in late 2018. I fixed it with an alternator replacement and now keep a spare in the trailer.

 

[honeybadger]

I swapped alternators with no change in behavior. I have an engine wiring harness sitting on my bench now waiting to install. @Egparson202 , I hope I don't have to chase other harnesses too, but thanks for the lead. I'll let y'all know if the engine harness does the trick.

Just to confirm - it was an identical alternator? OEM Ford?

And for harness, I think the battery harness is the one that you'll need. I think a short happens that causes a draw and that starts causing problems. But I am surprised you're having an issue with a new alternator.

 

[ChipG]

No, not an OEM, a rebuilt (since returned). I've been skeptical of alternator fixing it seeing that last time it was the pigtail, and this alternator is less than a year old.

 

[Angrey]

I could copy and paste this for my own car. The mag ride uses a ton more power then folks realize. I think if you went to the R dampers, you could potentially get by with an ATX-20 or ATX-30, but I wouldn't mess with it.

The issue at hand is the table top profile of a lithium vs an AGM or typical lead acid battery. Even when you plug in the different number code into Forscan (allegedly the Ford GT uses a lithium battery and guys tried using that code with seemingly no change to the BMS).

A typical AGM battery will have a steeper voltage curve as it depletes. The Lithium tends to stay very flat and maintain it's voltage right up until the point that it's dead. So the BMS is thinking (oh, the battery is good, let's save some fuel here and chill out) all the while the lithium is deep cycling and before you know it, you go to start the car and it struggles or it starts to triage which systems to neglect (like the stereo system).

If AntiGravity could somehow install on the battery a voltage regulator which knows the flat nature of the lithium and communicates that through voltage drops that the BMS system recognizes, I think it could work.

I miss the days when it was a simple alternator with a regulator and it basically tried to charge all the time. I wish there was a way to change the BMS strategy to basically say other than wide open throttle, charge the battery until it reaches over-charge.

 

[Angrey]

I think I'm following on everything but the LiPo not having the juice. LiPO typically can output more current than the OEM. Isn't the OEM only like 390 CCAs? I know the AG LiPO I use is 780CCA. It can output more current, just not as long is my understanding. I am far from an expert, tho.

I did a fair amount of testing for AG and while I never had ongoing issues with it, we did see some weird stuff in the logs - spikes of 15.6v, etc. The general consensus was that the Ford BMS really isn't a huge fan of LiPOs. Setting the BMS setting to Ford GT helped since the GT uses LiPOs.

In regarding to the issues OP is having - I had the same issues back in late 2018. I fixed it with an alternator replacement and now keep a spare in the trailer.

Thanks, yeah, I thought others tried the GT code and it didn't make a difference.

 

[WItoTX]

The issue at hand is the table top profile of a lithium vs an AGM or typical lead acid battery. Even when you plug in the different number code into Forscan (allegedly the Ford GT uses a lithium battery and guys tried using that code with seemingly no change to the BMS).

A typical AGM battery will have a steeper voltage curve as it depletes. The Lithium tends to stay very flat and maintain it's voltage right up until the point that it's dead. So the BMS is thinking (oh, the battery is good, let's save some fuel here and chill out) all the while the lithium is deep cycling and before you know it, you go to start the car and it struggles or it starts to triage which systems to neglect (like the stereo system).

If AntiGravity could somehow install on the battery a voltage regulator which knows the flat nature of the lithium and communicates that through voltage drops that the BMS system recognizes, I think it could work.

I miss the days when it was a simple alternator with a regulator and it basically tried to charge all the time. I wish there was a way to change the BMS strategy to basically say other than wide open throttle, charge the battery until it reaches over-charge.

This is super helpful info. My issue was immediate. Even after sitting on the charger and fully charged, I could start the car, engage the ABS one time, and all drive modes went out.

You are right, it's most likely a factor of the BMS and the profiles. I spent 9 months chasing the issue, which started gradually at first. Now I'm wondering if I killed my LiPo over those 9 months.

Anyways, great info. Thanks!

 

[RobeRob]

Hi guys I'm having sort of the same issue. Two dealers and two auto electrical shops in. I'm still having the same issue. I'm on my third alternator and same issue.
My problem is that the voltage some time goes too high causing the dash lights to dim. I've seen as high as 16.1V and nobody seems to be able to fix the car.$$$$$$ = 0 results

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