ESS Supercharger vs Big Brands

[SolarFlare]

This is the data I was asking for, what are 10r80 F1A or V7 JTBs running tuned by OZ tuning on e30?

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[beefcake]

You can't just look at fuel, if you want to compare times, you have to look at total timing.

in reality. you could run just as fast on pump as e85, e50, e30, etc.. "if" the engine doesn't below

what matters is how much timing is being shoved in the car. different tuners will do different things. every degree of timing is 20hp or so give or take on a boosted coyote at the same boost. so, if tuner a is more conservative and capping timing at 18 degrees, your going to make about 40hp less than the tuner capping at 20, and 80 less than the tuner capping at 22. and some tuners go even more.

thats why comparisons are a little tricky sometime, only way to get a true comparison on 2 different combos ,

same track, same weight, same tuner, same timing, same boost, same day, same wheels, tires, brakes, etc...

that would be the ultimate test, but almost impossible to do.

 

[Brad1810r80]

I highly doubt Ken has tuned f1a 10r80 car he mainly sticks with F150's. He tuned mine cause I was using him for my truck.

I'll agree to get a perfect comparison all of that has to line up. That's never going to happen never. So we'll just end with all of these kits are great. ESS , Procharger, Vortech/Paxton

 

[andrewtac]

Didn't say anything about they're kits not being able to go fast. All of them are great kits. I do believe from what I've seen at the track boost for boost and mod for mod. ESS will be faster.

Your results are impressive for the boost you are seeing, especially the 60 with a stock converter. Do you have logs? Timing, MAF, and some other things might help others see what is going on to make an apples to apples. It would be interesting to compare logs with other centris. I'll also add, you are the one and only with these results so far that we are seeing. That doesn't negate your results, but even stock mustangs vary by a bit as far as HP output. You might have the one unicorn that everything has lined up perfectly (all tolerances stacked up in your favor, transmission, engine, wheel bearings, headbolt clamping force, etc.) Your numbers are not that far off from 12psi paxtons or P1x, but they are better than average. I know when I was looking at my results compared to other paxton kits I thought I was below average; I started chasing boost leaks that didn't exist, tune problems that did not exist, and so on; then instead of the record breakers I looked at the mean and I was in the middle. There were guys with bigger pullies than I was running in the 9s, and my car was consistently a low 10 car. I do think the ESS blower is newer, and there are probably some improvements in technology; but at the end of the day they way they work (centri) is the same and there is only so much room for improvement.

The current price difference is about $400-500 when selecting the same items, based on what the websites show today (I used ID1050X). This is real money, but on the order of what one pays for sales tax.

All this said, think it is a viable option and have nothing negative to say about them. I would consider it as option if I were to do it all over. I also like to see competition, maybe vortech will make a new blower and not just a new impeller to compete.

Also, just noticed the G3 is 1600cfm blower, thought it was closer to the paxton; this is JTB sized. I wonder where the sweet spot is with it or if it will keep on climbing in power. With the lower step up in the JTB, I believe they were designed around higher boost levels. I don't know enough about compressor maps, and how they work (that was years ago for me), but everything is a trade. This might be the blower to run at lower boost versus the JTB at higher boost (or the D1X). It does make sense to make something that does better at lower boost for all those who plan on keeping a stock motor. It does sort of fill the gap between a couple blower, if this is true.

 

[Exploded_Muffin]

As far as I know no controlled tests have been done (and probably never will be) on an ESS kit vs any of the others so can't say what kit is the best pound for pound etc.

I can only say based of my own anecdotal experience that it's a good kit and even that is very limited in scope as I have never tried any other kit myself (I believe most people getting this kit are on their first rodeo with boost. It's a novice friendly kit which is one of its main selling points)

@beefcake, I don't see how they're breaking MAP since they're the manufacturers and can set whatever price they want.
Most other kits are sold through a dealer network like yours and ESS' model is to skirt that completely to keep decent profit margins (can't say for certain, they might be losing money on each kit) while offering very low pricing to capture market share since they're new. This is pretty standard and I'm positive their prices will go up in the next year or two.
Remains to be seen if they keep this manufacturer - consumer model long term.

I understand they're a direct competitor but this is a free market and there's no need to criticize the company/kit IMO. You can advertise your kits and beat their pricing without doing that and let the market decide

 

[Brad1810r80]

I have several logs, Ken has been working a lot with cam timing from transitioning into boost to help the lower end. Its worked great. My timing is usually 18-19 degs with -3.0 - -3.2 KR . I'm still learning all of this. My shift points are 7500 rpm pulling 15 degs of timing between shifts.

These kits are a little lighter than others which helps.

Ken actually bought one of this kits for his personal car.

Your results are impressive for the boost you are seeing, especially the 60 with a stock converter. Do you have logs? Timing, MAF, and some other things might help others see what is going on to make an apples to apples. It would be interesting to compare logs with other centris. I'll also add, you are the one and only with these results so far that we are seeing. That doesn't negate your results, but even stock mustangs vary by a bit as far as HP output. You might have the one unicorn that everything has lined up perfectly (all tolerances stacked up in your favor, transmission, engine, wheel bearings, headbolt clamping force, etc.) Your numbers are not that far off from 12psi paxtons or P1x, but they are better than average. I know when I was looking at my results compared to other paxton kits I thought I was below average; I started chasing boost leaks that didn't exist, tune problems that did not exist, and so on; then instead of the record breakers I looked at the mean and I was in the middle. There were guys with bigger pullies than I was running in the 9s, and my car was consistently a low 10 car. I do think the ESS blower is newer, and there are probably some improvements in technology; but at the end of the day they way they work (centri) is the same and there is only so much room for improvement.

The current price difference is about $400-500 when selecting the same items, based on what the websites show today (I used ID1050X). This is real money, but on the order of what one pays for sales tax.

All this said, think it is a viable option and have nothing negative to say about them. I would consider it as option if I were to do it all over. I also like to see competition, maybe vortech will make a new blower and not just a new impeller to compete.

 

[andrewtac]

I have several logs, Ken has been working a lot with cam timing from transitioning into boost to help the lower end. Its worked great. My timing is usually 18-19 degs with -3.0 - -3.2 KR . I'm still learning all of this. My shift points are 7500 rpm pulling 15 degs of timing between shifts.

These kits are a little lighter than others which helps.

Ken actually bought one of this kits for his personal car.

My current tune is a bit safe for E85, closer to and E70 and running about 19-20. Which is fine as I am probably pushing it to hard as it is, with less boost they had me around 22. What does your MAP peak out at?

I do have a larger pulley, might try it one day just to see how they compare. I'd like to see yours at 18psi to see what it does as well.

One thing to add, is the G3 compares to the JTB then the price difference is much more.

 

[Bigmac]

we will beat any price ess is putting out, for a comparable kit, and pretty soon you won't be able to get any injectors from ess either, even though we offer great pricing to members, they are blatenly breaking map with every single company out there. Simply call us with "Beat ESS" and we'll get you handled.

we are always happy to help members, but you still can't advertise something for whatever you want on pricing.

They are being moved to FIC, DW, and ID Do not sell list. So you'll be spending money and not getting product.

I genuinely don't understand your sales / marketing strategy at this point. First, you contact ESS trying to sell their product (This is based on a post in the other thread), and they say they're direct to consumer only on this product line. Then, you decide to make baseless allegations about the money going out of the country as if those running ESS kits are somehow not true Americans if they buy this kit or as if it's like we're supporting terrorism. Meanwhile, ESS is based in the US, assembles their kits in the US, employs people in the US, and the owner of the company lives in the US. Now, you're making claims that you'll drop your pants on all of the other kits you do sell, which means you're breaking their MAP pricing, but you're then making unsubstantiated claims that ESS is going to be on the DNS list for FIC, DW, and ID and trying to tell people they won't get their product if they order it.

All this tells me is that since these kits hit the market, you've seen a chunk of your sales disappear and you're getting desperate. Rather than holding your head high and focusing on the brands you do sell, you're trying to slander a competitor at every opportunity.

I've been in the performance aftermarket industry since 2013. My primary focus for the last 8.5 years has been outbound marketing via forums, Facebook, etc. I do not work for ESS and my only connection to them is I had their G2 kit on my '16 Mustang I sold over a year ago and I had their flash tune on my '13 M5 that I had years ago. As someone who has sold millions of dollars in parts from and to every corner of the world, my informed opinion is that ESS is a phenomenal brand. That said, if I was in this sector of the parts industry and ESS was a competitor for my brand lineup, I'd avoid ESS threads entirely and their name would never leave my keyboard. I'd focus on what I do offer, educate consumers on those specific brands, and uphold my reputation and credibility. I definitely wouldn't run around to every thread involving a competitor and sling poo all over the place.

 

[deanm11]

I tend to agree with the notion only so much can be done for the same boost level and tune, particularly timing in regard to the tune. Difference in effiicency - if it's really there, what could it be, 20hp, if is really is? Maybe. I do like that the kit is a good bit lighter than the Procharger P1X setup I'll be installing. And if Procharger's two price surcharges (latest Jan 28) stick and fully flow through to dealer pricing, the price delta could widen.

 

[beefcake]

The current price difference is about $400-500 when selecting the same items, based on what the websites show today (I used ID1050X). This is real money, but on the order of what one pays for sales tax.

All this said, think it is a viable option and have nothing negative to say about them. I would consider it as option if I were to do it all over. I also like to see competition, maybe vortech will make a new blower and not just a new impeller to compete.

Also, just noticed the G3 is 1600cfm blower, thought it was closer to the paxton; this is JTB sized. I wonder where the sweet spot is with it or if it will keep on climbing in power. With the lower step up in the JTB, I believe they were designed around higher boost levels. I don't know enough about compressor maps, and how they work (that was years ago for me), but everything is a trade. This might be the blower to run at lower boost versus the JTB at higher boost (or the D1X). It does make sense to make something that does better at lower boost for all those who plan on keeping a stock motor. It does sort of fill the gap between a couple blower, if this is true.

Like i said, on a comparable kit to an ess, we won't be undersold. We won't let it happen. Simply call me direct and we'll make a package for you.

Sales tax is based on state, whether a business collects it up front or not, you are required to pay it at the time of purchase or at the end of the year. Failing to do so is tax fraud in your state, most people don't know this, but since way fair vs south dakota, many states have started auditing.

By default our system will collect sales tax for just about every state. But, if you want to take your chances with the auditors, we will provide an invoice without sales tax.

 

[andrewtac]

Like i said, on a comparable kit to an ess, we won't be undersold. We won't let it happen. Simply call me direct and we'll make a package for you.

Sales tax is based on state, whether a business collects it up front or not, you are required to pay it at the time of purchase or at the end of the year. Failing to do so is tax fraud in your state, most people don't know this, but since way fair vs south dakota, many states have started auditing.

By default our system will collect sales tax for just about every state. But, if you want to take your chances with the auditors, we will provide an invoice without sales tax.

Completely understand salestax, my only point is that the difference in price is on the same order as sales tax, which many people don't consider to significant. Spending that much money it wouldn't be enough to persuade me, unless that was the only reason.

 

[beefcake]

Completely understand salestax, my only point is that the difference in price is on the same order as sales tax, which many people don't consider to significant. Spending that much money it wouldn't be enough to persuade me, unless that was the only reason.

gotcha..

 

[andrewtac]

gotcha..

Sometime I forget that others can't hear the voices in my head.

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

Like i said, on a comparable kit to an ess, we won't be undersold. We won't let it happen. Simply call me direct and we'll make a package for you.

Sales tax is based on state, whether a business collects it up front or not, you are required to pay it at the time of purchase or at the end of the year. Failing to do so is tax fraud in your state, most people don't know this, but since way fair vs south dakota, many states have started auditing.

By default our system will collect sales tax for just about every state. But, if you want to take your chances with the auditors, we will provide an invoice without sales tax.

Now, this is fair advertising Beef! State what you can or are willing to do without bashing the other company and let the people decide where they want to spend their money.

 

[beefcake]

Now, this is fair advertising Beef! State what you can or are willing to do without bashing the other company and let the people decide where they want to spend their money.

at the end of the day, we have to make money to be in business. we don't have to make alot. my business model is just that. Discount.... people have been copying my packages for years. we make affordable kits to give customers better results and at the end of the day they are happy. they get better results...and they tell their friends.

not saying they don't make a good product, i'm sure its fine, but i don't think its better, and I get the ess strategy. sell dealer direct to the customer and cut out the dealers. its good for some sales imo, but without a dealer network, you'll never get full support out there from the people that grind every day. the dealers, installers, etc... we all have families to support and if we can't market the product, we don't want to support it. and then you have to become anti product, and do whatever it takes, to take that business, and thats what were going to do.

vortech and paxton have committed to being the most affordable kit out there, and we will do WHATEVER it takes to make the customer happy and offer them the best price. because of map pricing, we can only advertise so much, but we will make it happen. Any customer can DM me or call me personally, or if your talking to one of my guys in the office, send me / us a screen shot of the ess pacakge your looking at and were going to make it happen. And since were not a mfg, but a dealer, we offer every other product that you need to with the car from fuel systems, to suspension, and the customer service and expertise to go with that. And we'll package everything for you to make it worth your while.

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