FOLLOW-UP : REPAIRED + PIC: Crank Case Sensor & Tone Ring

[BierGut]

New to the GT350/5.2 VooDoo.

Purchased in February, I've logged about 200 miles on my 2017 with 25,200 miles (replacement engine 12/2018 at 12k miles) and received the P0300 code. After a few days at the purchasing dealership's service department I was left a message that Ford Eng was telling them to replace the crank case sensor and tone ring. I've done a search, but info on is scattered. The car has been serviced by this dealer it's entire life.

So I'd like the forum's collective thoughts. Who, what, why and how? I am not mechanical, but pick up concepts pretty easily.

Additional info: as mentioned, this car had a new engine installed 12/18. There was a warranty claim for a similar CEL in November of 2020 where they replaced the intake stating they found some internal damage. The previous owner complained of CEL (P0300, P0316, P0308at) at 4k+ RPM shifts simialir to what I experienced. They also replaced all 8 injectors at the time and performed a misfire re-learn. They tested for and found no vacuum leaks at that time. Now 200 miles later I am getting this new CEL for P0300.

Call me suspicious.

I am a 30 year track guy and have developed an instinct for BS with regard to the 10+ sports cars I've owned and tracked over the years and just have a feeling these techs at the dealership are only 50% qualified. I realize this might be unfair, but nonetheless -- it's a gut feeling.

Needless to say I'm not happy about the tranny being dropped after only 200 miles so thoughts cross your mind like what they did or did not know prior to my purchasing the car. (again, I know it's a strong allegation) I am not looking for ammo to argue with the dealer, just a better understanding of what they are saying is wrong with the car. (Car is under warranty)

What will be needed once repairs are completed? Crank re-learn? Etc.?

Hey -- thanks for reading this post if you got through it. Any insight is helpful.

Cheers,
Biergut

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[Tank]

Here’s what the Helm says about your P0300 (misfire code)

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...re-at-your-own-risk.89612/page-6#post-2373331

Good Luck!

 

[Cobra Jet]

First, welcome to the site - you’ll like it, tons of great folks and lots of tech to learn On these S550’s.

This thread has additional info regarding the GT350 Tone ring (and TSB):
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/loose-transmission-tone-ring-nut.143909/


Check the pdf in this linked thread; any time there is major engine work or trans work performed on the S550, the Dealer Service Tech (or DIYer) is supposed to do a crank relearn procedure.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...s-weird-hesitation.125119/page-2#post-2679084

Also check this link if you have an Ngauge for crank relearn:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/new-clutch-dtc-and-shudders.148583/#post-3035678

 

[JAJ]

This thread has additional info regarding the GT350 Tone ring (and TSB):
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/loose-transmission-tone-ring-nut.143909/

The "tone ring" in this TSB is at the back end of the transmission and has nothing to do with the engine. It's how the dashboard knows how fast you're going.

 

[Cobra Jet]

The "tone ring" in this TSB is at the back end of the transmission and has nothing to do with the engine. It's how the dashboard knows how fast you're going.

Here’s the thread for the one at the Trans - IF this is what is needed (reference is a Coyote 5.0, but same concept in GT350):

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/p06e9-dtc-no-start.150022/

 

[JAJ]

Here’s the thread for the one at the Trans - IF this is what is needed (reference is a Coyote 5.0, but same concept in GT350):

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/p06e9-dtc-no-start.150022/

The GT350 gearbox tone ring issue (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10162060-0001.pdf) will NOT set a code for a misfire, which is the P0300 DTC the OP was asking about. In fact, the biggest problem with it is that it doesn't set a code at all, which made it hard to diagnose.

I'm a bit mystified why you'd bring S550 GT's into the discussion. They're not GT350's.

 

[Cobra Jet]

The GT350 gearbox tone ring issue (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10162060-0001.pdf) will NOT set a code for a misfire, which is the P0300 DTC the OP was asking about. In fact, the biggest problem with it is that it doesn't set a code at all, which made it hard to diagnose.

I'm a bit mystified why you'd bring S550 GT's into the discussion. They're not GT350's.

No offense, but the OP is inquiring to know more about what is being told to him from his Servicing Dealer and he’s a new GT350 owner. Terminology, diagnosis and “shop talk” specific to the GT350 and general S550 platform is new to him.

Tank offered a link to the P0300, which if I were to go to his supplied link, it also had other embedded hyperlinks for the Ford S550 Misfire diagnosis, info about crank relearn and the GT350 tone ring nut issue.

I supplied the OP with additional info that included the SSM for the S550 crank relearn, as well as the most current TSB regarding the GT350 tone ring nut (which BTW supersedes 2 prior TSB’s).

Then you come on and tell me that the Tone ring nut issue “has nothing to do with the engine”. If you read the TSB, IF there is an issue with the Tone Ring nut per the TSB:

may exhibit a hesitation or surge in the vehicle with no diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) present. This may be accompanied by an inoperative cruise control system.

Granted if a DTC doesn’t exist, it’s stated CLEARLY if the tone ring nut comes loose, it WILL cause hesitation or surge in the vehicle (AND if a Driver is trying to use cruise, cruise will be in-op). Granted the tone ring nut is found after the engine, the issue (IF present) does affect the engine operation and performance while driving.

The 3rd hyperlink I supplied above, even though NOT GT350 specific, relates back to the actual tone ring that the CPS needs to interpret for a data signal back to the PCM. IF that Tone Ring is damaged or isn’t present it will cause CPS data interpretation issues, which causes engine operational issues.

I’m not sure if you’re just not reading everything in those supplied links or what is possibly causing the conflict - because each link I have supplied to the OP is helpful for him to understand the S550 dynamics.

Other possibilities:
OP’s Servicing Dealer should check for damaged harnesses going to the CPS (if they have already replaced the CPS). If no damages there, then check coils and/or for any moisture contamination within PCM.

It’s possible the Tone Ring itself was damaged during a previous repair and it’s being overlooked.

Loose ground wires somewhere or a ground that is not making best metal to metal contact can also cause sporadic issues.

—-
Just an FYI:
The Voodoo is a Coyote variant; it shares its basic architecture with the Mustang GT’s 5.0 Coyote engine. Regardless if GT or GT350 - the DTC’s, tone rings, CPS sensors and trans flange tone ring nuts are alike and function in a similar manner.

This link may also be helpful to the OP. The GT350 Owner in this link also experienced repetitive drivability issues with multiple DTC’s:
https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/gt350-low-ect-poor-power-misfire-codes.13609/

 

[JAJ]

No offense, but the OP is inquiring to know more about what is being told to him from his Servicing Dealer and he’s a new GT350 owner. Terminology, diagnosis and “shop talk” specific to the GT350 and general S550 platform is new to him.

Tank offered a link to the P0300, which if I were to go to his supplied link, it also had other embedded hyperlinks for the Ford S550 Misfire diagnosis, info about crank relearn and the GT350 tone ring nut issue.

I supplied the OP with additional info that included the SSM for the S550 crank relearn, as well as the most current TSB regarding the GT350 tone ring nut (which BTW supersedes 2 prior TSB’s).

Then you come on and tell me that the Tone ring nut issue “has nothing to do with the engine”. If you read the TSB, IF there is an issue with the Tone Ring nut per the TSB:



Granted if a DTC doesn’t exist, it’s stated CLEARLY if the tone ring nut comes loose, it WILL cause hesitation or surge in the vehicle (AND if a Driver is trying to use cruise, cruise will be in-op). Granted the tone ring nut is found after the engine, the issue (IF present) does affect the engine operation and performance while driving.

The 3rd hyperlink I supplied above, even though NOT GT350 specific, relates back to the actual tone ring that the CPS needs to interpret for a data signal back to the PCM. IF that Tone Ring is damaged or isn’t present it will cause CPS data interpretation issues, which causes engine operational issues.

I’m not sure if you’re just not reading everything in those supplied links or what is possibly causing the conflict - because each link I have supplied to the OP is helpful for him to understand the S550 dynamics.

Other possibilities:
OP’s Servicing Dealer should check for damaged harnesses going to the CPS (if they have already replaced the CPS). If no damages there, then check coils and/or for any moisture contamination within PCM.

It’s possible the Tone Ring itself was damaged during a previous repair and it’s being overlooked.

Loose ground wires somewhere or a ground that is not making best metal to metal contact can also cause sporadic issues.

—-
Just an FYI:
The Voodoo is a Coyote variant; it shares its basic architecture with the Mustang GT’s 5.0 Coyote engine. Regardless if GT or GT350 - the DTC’s, tone rings, CPS sensors and trans flange tone ring nuts are alike and function in a similar manner.

This link may also be helpful to the OP. The GT350 Owner in this link also experienced repetitive drivability issues with multiple DTC’s:
https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/gt350-low-ect-poor-power-misfire-codes.13609/

I admire your commitment to being helpful. Really, I do. All I can say about my earlier response is that I was focusing on the OP's second sentence where he says that his engine had a P0300 misfire code.

The transmission "tone-ring" issue is unique to the GT350's Tremec 3160. Ford has said specifically that it doesn't cause DTC's and that detail is what relegates it to "off-topic" for a thread regarding a P0300 DTC.

As for the P0300 DTC itself, there are 21 sequential test steps in the service manual to determine what the actual problem is. Replacing the crank tone ring and CPS is #19, and by the time you get there you've done a pile of complex tests and swapped some pretty expensive parts. What strikes me as totally weird is that if none of the 21 steps finds the problem, the test sequence ends with this cheery message: "The concern may have been caused by a loose or corroded connector"

 

[BierGut]

First -- thank you for the threads -- I have a lot of reading to do. Yes, I am acquainting myself with all things S550. It's one of the things I love about getting a track car that is completely new to me.

PS: Glad I didn't call the Tone Ring the Reluctor wheel.

 

[BierGut]

As for the P0300 DTC itself, there are 21 sequential test steps in the service manual to determine what the actual problem is. Replacing the crank tone ring and CPS is #19, and by the time you get there you've done a pile of complex tests and swapped some pretty expensive parts. What strikes me as totally weird is that if none of the 21 steps finds the problem, the test sequence ends with this cheery message: "The concern may have been caused by a loose or corroded connector"

THIS is what I am a bit concerned about and need to speak with the dealership this morning. They mentioned in a voicemail that they had spent a lot of time on it and were not getting anywhere so maybe they have checked through the entire gamut of tests, but to me, why wouldn't you first look through all connectors, wires and harnesses? Maybe they have? What I do know is it usually does not go very well when you start questioning a dealership operation on what and how they do things. It's one of the major disadvantages opposed to working with a good independent where one can spitball back and forth with a better flow of information. My new to me GT350 is under a warranty which (and the fact I've only put 200 miles on it) is why I am using the dealership.

 

[BierGut]

so what is the shop time to replace the tone ring and crank sensor?

 

[Cobra Jet]

so what is the shop time to replace the tone ring and crank sensor?

Crank sensor can be replaced in the amount of time one would take to open their fridge door, get milk, Hershey’s chocolate, glass and spoon - mix, put milk and chocolate back in fridge, drink and then put glass into dishwasher...

—-

The tone ring requires removal of the transmission.

See this thread; the first image in it, the round circular toothed object on the floor directly below the engine - that is the Tone Ring. It gets placed onto the back of the crank so the CPS can read it (also seen in the image):
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...utch-install-and-flywheel-bolt-warning.87130/

 

[BierGut]

The tone ring requires removal of the transmission.

Thanks for the link. How long would the job take? 6 hours? 8 hours? (factory recommended book time)

 

[Cobra Jet]

Thanks for the link. How long would the job take? 6 hours? 8 hours? (factory recommended book time)

Good question - but unfortunately, I do not have the actual S550 Shop times for the Trans R&R - plus even if we had the actual book times, it’s probably going to vary by Tech experience level as well.
Maybe @GT Pony or @fmc_smt might have some insight for the actual Shop Labor times for a GT350 trans R&R.

 

[BierGut]

Good question - but unfortunately, I do t have the actual S550 Shop times for the Trans R&R - plus even if we had the actual book times, it’s probably going to vary by Tech experience level as well.
Maybe @GT Pony or @fmc_smt might have some insight for the actual Shop Labor times for a GT350 trans R&R.

Thanks for the consideration Cobra Jet -- most appreciated.

I am still having some difficulty (and can't get a straight answer from the dealer service department) as to why they are replacing the tone ring ALONG with the crank sensor. For the code P0300, why wouldn't you just try replacing the crank sensor and see if that corrects the issue? Why add the large job of removing the transmission to the mix?

Hey -- I am not a technician, I just ask stupid questions.

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