Drag Race Showdown: 2020 GT500 vs Challenger Hellcat Redeye vs Camaro ZL1!

[Minn19]

Which is precisely why I argued (before the GT500 was released) that the base and CFTP will be faster in every way than it's ZL1 and ZL1 1LE counterparts. Failure wouldn't have been a strong enough word if it didn't beat them soundly in every valid performance metric.

Im not surprised that it’ll win any type of race against those competitors. Drag, road course, roll race, etc. About the only thing I can agree with the C6 visitors on. Is if it didn’t it would have been a failure. Base on price point. And being 3 to 4 years behind the hellcat and ZL1.

I honestly think you can partially thank GM and the ZL1s for how good the GT500 is now. I think it seriously caught them (Ford) off guard on how good those cars are/were performance wise in comparison to the GT350s. Competition is a good thing.

All that being said, I don't think the ZLE will be as far behind the CFTP as some here think it will. Especially on the tighter more technical road courses. Yes, I will say I was wrong if it is proven to be true.

@millhouse, I think you can speak up about the Randy P conspiracy stories. The guy loved the GT350R and there is plenty of other evidence (besides being completely ridiculous) that he isn't a GM shill. That is a 100% fanboy thing to use as an excuse for whatever. The BMW guys hated Camissa and MT saying he/they couldn't set the M4 GTS up right, which apparently nobody could. I'm very popular on many sites.

Off topic, but how do you use the multi quote on this site? Ever since they went to the new software here I've never been able to use it very well.

 

[Minn19]

Meaning, they should go for more than 1/4 mile. I would go at least a mile. Some cars run out of gas past 140mph. See who is quickest.

GT500 top speed - 180 mph
ZL1 top speed - 202 mph
Redeye top speed - 203 mph

Is that governed for the GT500? That surprises me it would be that low compared to the others. I always thought top speed is a fairly meaningless stat anyways and extremely rarely comes into play. All of these cars have enough legs to for all US road courses. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure if you can hit the top speed on any of them. Maybe COTAs main straight, Daytona's banked sweeper? Road America's main straight is really long, but I don't think long enough. Any way, you get my point.

 

[Laststandard]

Oh yeah, I think the Pill was on one of the BMW forums, that guy legit cracked me up.

Yes they have, @Laststandard today said something to him and a couple others have as well. You are purposely ignoring those comments for some reason.

So what if you get banned, is it really that big of a deal?

Again, you and ton of others here are very silent in regards to your own fanboys, of which this site has the most I've ever seen. So why so concerned about another forum you have no interest in signing up at?

Last, what about my comments in regards to the subject in this thread? Are/were you genuinely surprised the GT500 would win a competition or any drag race against its main competitors like this one? I certainly am not and would of been very surprised if it didn't.

My pet theory is that MH and BH are actually the same person

I'm not concerned, it's pure entertainment. The problem is, you can't debate with the db. He's incapable of rational discussions. I could mention SAE correction, thermodynamic laws or the ideal gas equation....but he is incapable of taking in that information. He's a flat worlder with GT500 derangement syndrome. Notice that he can't admit when he's wrong? No fixing that.

As for fanboys, we all are in some way. I call out things I can debate. If someone thinks Randy Pobst is a double agent working for GM, I can't debate that. I have no information to prove or disprove the theory. Notice when I discuss actual numbers, I am quick to quote articles? I use the information to prove my point.

I feel like he had a pretty reasonable argument to his claim that the GT500 was more affected by track condition. But, I wouldn't say it's unexpected given that Fords official 10.7 was done on a prepped surface and the 11.3-11.5 we've been seeing from the mags are on unprepped tracks. I don't know what the slowest mag time was for a ZL1, but mag times always seemed to be pretty consistent in the 11.4-11.7 mark. Personally, I could care less about 1/4 times.

BTW, do you still think a track alignment is some mystical thing that no one would ever do to their car?

Im not surprised that it’ll win any type of race against those competitors. Drag, road course, roll race, etc. About the only thing I can agree with the C6 visitors on. Is if it didn’t it would have been a failure. Base on price point. And being 3 to 4 years behind the hellcat and ZL1.

There hasn't been a proper track test of the GT500 vs ZL1 yet. That's the one I'm most curious about. I'm expecting ZL1 < GT500 < ZLE < GT500 CFTP (depending on track conditions of course )

 

[thill444]

I don't buy the Randy P conspiracy theories. For 2019 here is his personal drivers car ranking (ranked in order):

1. Porsche 911 Carrera S. See all 100 photos.
2. McLaren Senna. See all 100 photos. ...
3. Ford Mustang Shelby GT 350. See all 100 photos. ...
4. BMW M2 Competition. See all 100 photos. ...
5. BMW M850i xDrive Coupe. ...
6. Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S 4Matic+ ...
7. Jaguar XE SV Project 8. ...
8. Aston Martin DBS Superleggera. ...
9. Toyota Supra
10. Bentley GT
11. Lambo URUS
12. Dodge Challenger Hellcat

 

[Boss2013]

Yup, and none of the locals call him out on his drivel.

And some , cough *hotlap” cough, even encourage him. I guess when you’re an old fart who’s extent of spirited driving in the last 20 years is going to the store and back in your Hotwheels edition Camaro, you have to live vicariously through another. I think the only reason he likes blaq is because he appeals to his “GM or nothing” mentality.

 

[thill444]

There is so much more to a car than specs. I don't necessarily agree that Ford was trying to beat the Camaro with the GT350. If that was the intention they would not have spent all the money on R&D on the engine and they would have given the car a DCT or at least the 10 speed.

Minn19 you have owned both and I have a lot of seat time in both, but also owned a C7/Z51 with the LT1 and they are very differently designed engines. Ford really wanted that FPC with the wide and linear powerband. Peak torque is just not there down low like the LT1. As much as people love to compare the specs and numbers if you drive the cars back to back (I have numerous times) they both have very different personalities. Both have great manual gearboxes and excellent handling, but Ford seemed to focus more on putting the money towards an engine and exhaust that have more character than trying to chase lap times. Otherwise they could have easily just added more power through FI, etc to a Coyote and gone that route (maybe 600-650hp for the GT350). And then offered the automatic as we have seen those can make a big difference in performance.

I dunno. How many people shop and buy the car that has slightly better track numbers anyway? I don't. There were many other things that drew me to the GT350 just like I am sure other people are drawn to the Camaro for it's reasons.

 

[Laststandard]

Both have great manual gearboxes and excellent handling, but Ford seemed to focus more on putting the money towards an engine and exhaust that have more character than trying to chase lap times

Except the GT350 is pretty universally recognized as having better chassis tuning than the base S550. Better front end behavior due to the revised front knuckle and steering rack, and whatever else they've done. It was far from just engine and exhaust. If the GT shared those parts and the Tremec gearbox I would have had a much tougher time choosing between it and an SS 1LE.

 

[millhouse]

I honestly think you can partially thank GM and the ZL1s for how good the GT500 is now. I think it seriously caught them (Ford) off guard on how good those cars are/were performance wise in comparison to the GT350s. Competition is a good thing.

All that being said, I don't think the ZLE will be as far behind the CFTP as some here think it will. Especially on the tighter more technical road courses. Yes, I will say I was wrong if it is proven to be true.

@millhouse, I think you can speak up about the Randy P conspiracy stories. The guy loved the GT350R and there is plenty of other evidence (besides being completely ridiculous) that he isn't a GM shill. That is a 100% fanboy thing to use as an excuse for whatever. The BMW guys hated Camissa and MT saying he/they couldn't set the M4 GTS up right, which apparently nobody could. I'm very popular on many sites.

Off topic, but how do you use the multi quote on this site? Ever since they went to the new software here I've never been able to use it very well.

Competition is good indeed. And agreed, the ZL1 and ZLE absolutely caught Ford off-guard.

As for quotes, select the "quote" function at the bottom of each response. Then scroll to the bottom of the screen and select the "insert quotes" function.

My pet theory is that MH and BH are actually the same person



I feel like he had a pretty reasonable argument to his claim that the GT500 was more affected by track condition. But, I wouldn't say it's unexpected given that Fords official 10.7 was done on a prepped surface and the 11.3-11.5 we've been seeing from the mags are on unprepped tracks. I don't know what the slowest mag time was for a ZL1, but mag times always seemed to be pretty consistent in the 11.4-11.7 mark. Personally, I could care less about 1/4 times.

BTW, do you still think a track alignment is some mystical thing that no one would ever do to their car?



There hasn't been a proper track test of the GT500 vs ZL1 yet. That's the one I'm most curious about. I'm expecting ZL1 < GT500 < ZLE < GT500 CFTP (depending on track conditions of course )

The GT500 IS more affected by track conditions. It has more power. You know what isn't affected by track conditions hardly at all? A moped. That doesn't make it a good vehicle.

The funny thing is, the edmunds article claims that the ZLE tires are effected negatively by the cold temps, and argues that the hellcat has far too skinny tires.... but fails to mention anything about the cup 2 tires on the GT500. I wonder if they felt the ZLE was more affected by the cold temps than the GT500?

 

[thill444]

Except the GT350 is pretty universally recognized as having better chassis tuning than the base S550. Better front end behavior due to the revised front knuckle and steering rack, and whatever else they've done. It was far from just engine and exhaust. If the GT shared those parts and the Tremec gearbox I would have had a much tougher time choosing between it and an SS 1LE.

I am not saying Ford was not trying to make the GT350 a superior track car. Clearly they were with the cooling, etc. My point was if Ford was just trying to chase specs and laptimes they would not have spent as much of the budget on a FPC/NA engine and only given the car a manual greabox. And I am sure they were benchmarking the Camaro, but I just don't see them chasing numbers as much as people like to think.

 

[Boss2013]

I honestly think you can partially thank GM and the ZL1s for how good the GT500 is now. I think it seriously caught them (Ford) off guard on how good those cars are/were performance wise in comparison to the GT350s. Competition is a good thing.

All that being said, I don't think the ZLE will be as far behind the CFTP as some here think it will. Especially on the tighter more technical road courses. Yes, I will say I was wrong if it is proven to be true.

@millhouse, I think you can speak up about the Randy P conspiracy stories. The guy loved the GT350R and there is plenty of other evidence (besides being completely ridiculous) that he isn't a GM shill. That is a 100% fanboy thing to use as an excuse for whatever. The BMW guys hated Camissa and MT saying he/they couldn't set the M4 GTS up right, which apparently nobody could. I'm very popular on many sites.

Off topic, but how do you use the multi quote on this site? Ever since they went to the new software here I've never been able to use it very well.

I think the ZL1 1LE and CFTP GT500 will be pretty close, too. Primarily because the 1LE was engineered to put down the very best lap times while the GT500 is engineered to be a grand tourer. The 1LE can be driven on the street, obviously, but it will never be as comfortable in that venue as the GT500.

The big assumption that is continually out there is that GM has better engineers than Ford. The fact is, each group builds their cars with an overall purpose in mind. They just happen to be different.

BTW, I have never directed any comment to TreedYou on the other forum. Not sure why you stated I had.

 

[millhouse]

I think the ZL1 1LE and CFTP GT500 will be pretty close, too. Primarily because the 1LE was engineered to put down the very best lap times while the GT500 is engineered to be a grand tourer. The 1LE can be driven on the street, obviously, but it will never be as comfortable in that venue as the GT500.

The big assumption that is continually out there is that GM has better engineers than Ford. The fact is, each group builds their cars with an overall purpose in mind. The just happen to be different.

I guess that depends on your definition of "close". In a head to head, I expect the CFTP to be more than a second ahead of the ZLE at a track like VIR. Around an autocross track, I expect a miata to spank them both.

 

[Laststandard]

Competition is good indeed. And agreed, the ZL1 and ZLE absolutely caught Ford off-guard.

As for quotes, select the "quote" function at the bottom of each response. Then scroll to the bottom of the screen and select the "insert quotes" function.



The GT500 IS more affected by track conditions. It has more power. You know what isn't affected by track conditions hardly at all? A moped. That doesn't make it a good vehicle.

The funny thing is, the edmunds article claims that the ZLE tires are effected negatively by the cold temps, and argues that the hellcat has far too skinny tires.... but fails to mention anything about the cup 2 tires on the GT500. I wonder if they felt the ZLE was more affected by the cold temps than the GT500?

So, you're saying BH was right? Am I having a stroke right now?

 

[thill444]

I think the ZL1 1LE and CFTP GT500 will be pretty close, too. Primarily because the 1LE was engineered to put down the very best lap times while the GT500 is engineered to be a grand tourer. The 1LE can be driven on the street, obviously, but it will never be as comfortable in that venue as the GT500.

The big assumption that is continually out there is that GM has better engineers than Ford. The fact is, each group builds their cars with an overall purpose in mind. The just happen to be different.

Exactly what I was trying to convey earlier. You don't hear people raving about how great the ZLE is on the street because it is tuned for the track. The GT500/CFTP? It seems to be very good at everything. Street, track, strip.

 

[Boss2013]

I guess that depends on your definition of "close". In a head to head, I expect the CFTP to be more than a second ahead of the ZLE at a track like VIR. Around an autocross track, I expect a miata to spank them both.

Nobody in their right mind is going to autocross a GT500, so that’s a moot point. There are some who feel that if the GT500 does not significantly outperform the ZL1 1LE on both technical track and those with long straights, it is somehow a failure. Simply not true.

 

[millhouse]

So, you're saying BH was right? Am I having a stroke right now?

Haha, yes...but only in regards to the track (not absurd DA and Temp claims), and not for the reasons he thinks. He seems to think GM has somehow tuned these vehicles better than Ford....when in all reality, any higher horsepower car has a more difficult time finding traction on the street than lower horsepower cars.

A clock is right twice a day.