'

[millhouse]

Ohh yeah, since physics doesn't apply for you. I can also put lap times from caranddriver for you Camaro ZL1/1LE 2:45.0 Ford GT 2:45.5 and 2:43.0. So you really think the GT500 is going to handle better than a Ford GT. Keep dreaming.

I recommend you take a trip to your local community college and drop in on a physics class. Maybe then you'll understand there is more to an equation than just mass. If you ever decide to take it further, dynamic systems and controls would be some good reading.

But yeah, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Ford bench-marked the ZL1 1LE and the Porsche 911 GT3 so they could under-perform and disappoint all of their potential buyers. Funny, to most sane people that sounds absurd. To you however...sanity is thrown out the window...and you actually believe the drivel that you spew.

Some more good reads for you (although I doubt you will).

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23132424/2017-ford-gt-lightning-lap-2018/

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15278405/lightning-lap-115-we-lap-the-ford-gt-at-vir-feature/

Cliff notes:

1) The 2:45.5 time was greatly influenced by detrimental weather....showing how silly it is to compare track times from different drivers on different days.

2) The 2:43 time not only was a track record, but car and driver wasn't able to go through normal testing and claims they would likely have shaved seconds more off of that time.

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[JohnnyUtah]

I still don't understand why people continue to talk about car comparisons as though it's all about a number. A number that reflects the car's capability, sure, but it doesn't necessarily relate to what the owner will do with it. I guess it's convenient to pretend as though everything about a car can be summed up by a single number, because that makes the comparison easy to do.

I don't buy cars for numbers, I buy them for enjoyment. If you don't enjoy driving a car, why even own it?

Bottom line is, the GT350 already won the comparisons with the Camaro. The ZL1 1LE is too stiff riding for most people and the Camaro basic greenhouse design is poor enough that even with more power and faster lap times, the reviewers think the GT350 is preferred.

Probably the GT500 should only be compared to the Corvette or the GT350, since we all know the Camaro is a loser.

I know what you're saying. That's exactly what the mags do, they try to test it objectively on the track, then add in their subjective feedback and choose a winner. That's why the chose the 350R over the ZL1 even though it turned a faster lap. I get it. I'd probably chose the same way if you put the cars next to each other and said pick one. The motor in the 350 is the shit.

That being said, I dont believe they ever tested the 350R against the ZLE. Those two are quite far apart on track.

I understand that there are reasons why people dont like the Camaro. I was simply pointing out that at this point it's a lose lose situation in the comparos for the GT500 because it's late to the game and has more HP and costs more. It genuinely should be faster. I think a lot of people were surprised by the weight though and that makes anyone who tracks cars question the potential downside, particularly on a smaller course.

You have to admit that if it was slower than the ZLE, then it would be a bit of a black eye. If it ends up being quicker and does so while having a more compliant ride, then that's awesome and they've done a great job tuning the mag ride to manage that weight.

I do find it funny that any time a Camaro does objectively better in any test everyone rushes to point out its "flaws" though. Visibility being the first item always on the list followed by claiming its ugly. Suspension stiffness is valid for daily drivability, but who is daily driving a ZLE or GT500 track pack? I guess I've seen people do it, but it's not like it's a regular thing.

 

[ALUSA]

I recommend you take a trip to your local community college and drop in on a physics class. Maybe then you'll understand there is more to an equation than just mass. If you ever decide to take it further, dynamic systems and controls would be some good reading.

But yeah, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Ford bench-marked the ZL1 1LE and the Porsche 911 GT3 so they could under-perform and disappoint all of their potential buyers. Funny, to most sane people that sounds absurd. To you however...sanity is thrown out the window...and you actually believe the drivel that you spew.

Some more good reads for you (although I doubt you will).

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23132424/2017-ford-gt-lightning-lap-2018/

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15278405/lightning-lap-115-we-lap-the-ford-gt-at-vir-feature/

Cliff notes:

1) The 2:45.5 time was greatly influenced by detrimental weather....showing how silly it is to compare track times from different drivers on different days.

2) The 2:43 time not only was a track record, but car and driver wasn't able to go through normal testing and claims they would likely have shaved seconds more off of that time.

And advise you to go back to high school for the physics class. You are that behind. Ford didn't benchmark any of the cars you listed. They are not after lap times. They are ok with the straight line performance and want to sell GT 350's for road coarse purposes. The $95,000 GT500 is an option if you want both straight line and the road coarse performance, but even then, they know even with the DCT and 760 HP it is hard to push a 4200 lbs steam roller around corners. Don't get me wrong. Ford is doing all they can, they are trying with CF wheels and bits to reduce unsprung weight but there is only so much they can do. I am even ok if the $95,000+ version of the GT 500 can out handle the ZL1 1LE. There is still hope.

 

[millhouse]

I know what you're saying. That's exactly what the mags do, they try to test it objectively on the track, then add in their subjective feedback and choose a winner. That's why the chose the 350R over the ZL1 even though it turned a faster lap. I get it. I'd probably chose the same way if you put the cars next to each other and said pick one. The motor in the 350 is the shit.

That being said, I dont believe they ever tested the 350R against the ZLE. Those two are quite far apart on track.

I understand that there are reasons why people dont like the Camaro. I was simply pointing out that at this point it's a lose lose situation in the comparos for the GT500 because it's late to the game and has more HP and costs more. It genuinely should be faster. I think a lot of people were surprised by the weight though and that makes anyone who tracks cars question the potential downside, particularly on a smaller course.

You have to admit that if it was slower than the ZLE, then it would be a bit of a black eye. If it ends up being quicker and does so while having a more compliant ride, then that's awesome and they've done a great job tuning the mag ride to manage that weight.

I do find it funny that any time a Camaro does objectively better in any test everyone rushes to point out its "flaws" though. Visibility being the first item always on the list followed by claiming its ugly. Suspension stiffness is valid for daily drivability, but who is daily driving a ZLE or GT500 track pack? I guess I've seen people do it, but it's not like it's a regular thing.

If the Carbon Pack doesn't kill the ZLE around most major tracks it will be a complete and total failure...well beyond black eye territory Ford bench-marked it as well as faster vehicles. At this point, it's fairly safe to assume both GT500 variants are going to fairly handily take car of the ZL variants. Why anyone at this stage would think the ZL variants would come out on top of anything (except price) would be due to complete fanyboy ignorance.

As for daily driving, comments have been made at how well the GT500 cars are suited for daily drive-ability. I have seen several threads over on the camaro forums constantly asking how to make their ZLE's more comfortable for daily driving. People really do care.

 

[Balr14]

The real test of any of these "super cars" is a couple weeks driving on Milwaukee streets. Nothing like awful streets to provide a dose of reality about how your "dream car" works in the real world.

 

[millhouse]

And advise you to go back to high school for the physics class. You are that behind.

This is the best you can do? Not surprising.

Ford didn't benchmark any of the cars you listed.

This is too easy.

https://www.motor1.com/news/174925/ford-benchmarking-porsche-mustang-shelby-gt350/

“When we did this work we certainly set targets as up as uplifts relative to GT350,” Ed explained. “From a performance perspective we certainly looked at all the Camaro derivatives, including the ZL1 ILE and from the powertrain functionality perspective we spent a lot of time in Porsche GT3s and Mercedes AMG GT Rs.”

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/supercar-slaying-700-horsepower-2020-shelby-gt500-debuts-in-detroit/

"Without knowing it (perhaps), the engineers and vehicle dynamics development drivers at Ford Performance endowed the GT500R (that's what I'm calling it) with the same spirit mission as McLaren "LT" and Porsche "RS" badged cars. During the GT500R's development, the team had driven Camaros and Hellcats, sure, but also McLarens and Porsches. "

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...-shelby-gt500-first-drive-changes-everything/

You seem to be under some notion that Ford doesn't care about lap times or performance. They absolutely do...they just don't care about personally setting lap records and publishing them. They leave it up to reviewers and owners to make those determinations. Why else do you think Billy Johnson was involved with the latest GT350R and GT500?

They are ok with the straight line performance and want to sell GT 350's for road coarse purposes. The $95,000 GT500 is an option if you want both straight line and the road coarse performance, but even then, they know even with the DCT and 760 HP it is hard to push a 4200 lbs steam roller around corners. Don't get me wrong. Ford is doing all they can, they are trying with CF wheels and bits to reduce unsprung weight but there is only so much they can do. I am even ok if the $95,000+ version of the GT 500 can out handle the ZL1 1LE. There is still hope.

To understand where the GT500 carbon pack lies, this sums it up quite well...

"Think of the naturally aspirated, manual-transmission-only GT350 as Ford's own Porsche 911 GT3 and the Shelby GT500 as Ford's 911 GT2 RS, and you'll understand both how similar and different these two cars are. Yeah, we're comparing Mustangs to Porsche's best sports cars. The Shelby GT500 is that good."

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29617093/2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-drive/

 

[ALUSA]

Man, I remember when S550 came out with the Performance Package GT, Ford claimed they benchmarked the Porsche, the car gained weight and with bad chassis and suspension tuning, the car couldn't even beat the old gen SS 1LE. Then the GT350 came out, they said they benchmarked the old gen Z28, it barely beat it but then the Alpha platform came out not even a year and gave similar performance for a lot less money like the SS 1LE. In all performance comparisons a regular ZL1 even beats a track rat GT350R. Now year 2020 comes, and Ford finally comes out with the GT 500, 5 years after S550 platform hits the streets. They first claim the GT500 is a straight line monster and people who wants road coarse performance should choose the GT350R, and they have no intention on chasing lap times. Now they claim they benchmarked the high end road coarse warriors and trying to justify their $95,000 price tag for the CF Track Pack GT 500. I don't buy it. So far, the only time they did their homework was for when they released the GT350R and benchmarked the old gen about the retire Z28. Ford did lots of mistakes throughout the S550 platform. History will repeat itself again, unfortunately. At least the car is a straight line monster but nothing amazing considering it has 760 hp and DCT.

 

[ALUSA]

This is the best you can do? Not surprising.




This is too easy.

https://www.motor1.com/news/174925/ford-benchmarking-porsche-mustang-shelby-gt350/

“When we did this work we certainly set targets as up as uplifts relative to GT350,” Ed explained. “From a performance perspective we certainly looked at all the Camaro derivatives, including the ZL1 ILE and from the powertrain functionality perspective we spent a lot of time in Porsche GT3s and Mercedes AMG GT Rs.”

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/supercar-slaying-700-horsepower-2020-shelby-gt500-debuts-in-detroit/

"Without knowing it (perhaps), the engineers and vehicle dynamics development drivers at Ford Performance endowed the GT500R (that's what I'm calling it) with the same spirit mission as McLaren "LT" and Porsche "RS" badged cars. During the GT500R's development, the team had driven Camaros and Hellcats, sure, but also McLarens and Porsches. "

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...-shelby-gt500-first-drive-changes-everything/

You seem to be under some notion that Ford doesn't care about lap times or performance. They absolutely do...they just don't care about personally setting lap records and publishing them. They leave it up to reviewers and owners to make those determinations. Why else do you think Billy Johnson was involved with the latest GT350R and GT500?



To understand where the GT500 carbon pack lies, this sums it up quite well...

"Think of the naturally aspirated, manual-transmission-only GT350 as Ford's own Porsche 911 GT3 and the Shelby GT500 as Ford's 911 GT2 RS, and you'll understand both how similar and different these two cars are. Yeah, we're comparing Mustangs to Porsche's best sports cars. The Shelby GT500 is that good."

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a29617093/2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-drive/

Yeah yeah, they don't care about posting lap times or records but no shame in posting the quarter mile time? Do you really buy that. They don't want to post lap times because they can't. They couldn't beat the competition even they had that much time in their disposal. They had no excuse.

 

[millhouse]

Yeah yeah, they don't care about posting lap times or records but no shame in posting the quarter mile time? Do you really buy that. They don't want to post lap times because they can't. They couldn't beat the competition even they had that much time in their disposal. They had no excuse.

They NEVER post lap times...for any cars..even when they have been proven to be phenomenal. Deal with it.

I'm still waiting for a response on the whole "Ford didn't benchmark any of the cars you listed." fallacy. What was that again?

 

[Hack]

I know what you're saying. That's exactly what the mags do, they try to test it objectively on the track, then add in their subjective feedback and choose a winner. That's why the chose the 350R over the ZL1 even though it turned a faster lap. I get it. I'd probably chose the same way if you put the cars next to each other and said pick one. The motor in the 350 is the shit.

That being said, I dont believe they ever tested the 350R against the ZLE. Those two are quite far apart on track.

I understand that there are reasons why people dont like the Camaro. I was simply pointing out that at this point it's a lose lose situation in the comparos for the GT500 because it's late to the game and has more HP and costs more. It genuinely should be faster. I think a lot of people were surprised by the weight though and that makes anyone who tracks cars question the potential downside, particularly on a smaller course.

You have to admit that if it was slower than the ZLE, then it would be a bit of a black eye. If it ends up being quicker and does so while having a more compliant ride, then that's awesome and they've done a great job tuning the mag ride to manage that weight.

I do find it funny that any time a Camaro does objectively better in any test everyone rushes to point out its "flaws" though. Visibility being the first item always on the list followed by claiming its ugly. Suspension stiffness is valid for daily drivability, but who is daily driving a ZLE or GT500 track pack? I guess I've seen people do it, but it's not like it's a regular thing.

Even if you aren't using your "trophy" garage art vehicle as a car regularly - hopefully you at least enjoy it when you do drive it. If you buy a brand new car and then use it track only, more power to you. Seems like a spectacular waste of money to buy something like that, though. The ZL1 1LE just seems to me like another "bigger hammer engineering" car like the Z/28 where few want to drive it regularly.

I completely disagree with the lose lose thing you are trying to say. If the GT500 wins it wins. If it loses, it loses (in that single measure only). Yes the Mustang/Camaro thing is there so if it doesn't beat the ZL1 1LE on the road course, some people will think it's no good. They will think that even if everything else about the GT500 is better than the ZL1 1LE. I get that. But I disagree with that one dimensional way of thinking.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Ok, let's wait and see...physics indeed sir.

I think he's drunk ...

 

[nastang87xx]

Well I just bought an 812 Superfast so your ZLMNOPQRS1 1LEFGHIJ's and your GT538923984782's are ALL irrelevant.


















































I wish...

 

[activeGT]

I do find it funny that any time a Camaro does objectively better in any test everyone rushes to point out its "flaws" though. Visibility being the first item always on the list followed by claiming its ugly. Suspension stiffness is valid for daily drivability, but who is daily driving a ZLE or GT500 track pack? I guess I've seen people do it, but it's not like it's a regular thing.

How true.

 

[ALUSA]

They NEVER post lap times...for any cars..even when they have been proven to be phenomenal. Deal with it.

I'm still waiting for a response on the whole "Ford didn't benchmark any of the cars you listed." fallacy. What was that again?

Forget about benchmarking. I wrote above that Ford supposedly benchmarked Porsche when the S550 performance packed gt came out. They skipped the ss1le and benchmarked the Porsche. Yeah right. I bet the GT500 benchmarked the the cars you listed so when they fail to beat the real competition they wouldn’t looks so bad. Now tell me, if the $75,000 Ford GT500 doesn’t beat the ZLE around a track, are you willing to give up on your brand loyalty and join the logical brotherhood or still keep this silliness?

 

[JohnnyUtah]

Even if you aren't using your "trophy" garage art vehicle as a car regularly - hopefully you at least enjoy it when you do drive it. If you buy a brand new car and then use it track only, more power to you. Seems like a spectacular waste of money to buy something like that, though. The ZL1 1LE just seems to me like another "bigger hammer engineering" car like the Z/28 where few want to drive it regularly.

I completely disagree with the lose lose thing you are trying to say. If the GT500 wins it wins. If it loses, it loses (in that single measure only). Yes the Mustang/Camaro thing is there so if it doesn't beat the ZL1 1LE on the road course, some people will think it's no good. They will think that even if everything else about the GT500 is better than the ZL1 1LE. I get that. But I disagree with that one dimensional way of thinking.

I actually know several people who have track only cars. Some have fully purposed race cars, others have street legal vehicles that they trailer to the track and occasionally drive around town. I think the majority of people who buy a car as hardcore as a 350R, ZLE, or GT500 TP are closer to this camp than the daily driver bunch.

But yes, the ZLE is as you describe it. It is a sledgehammer and meant more for track duty. Will be sweet if the GT500 can pull off both nicely.

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