Rev Matching Retrofit

[NoVaGT]

The technique is literally in the name... HEEL and TOE. The rollover technique that you use (and as I have said, I also use) is effective in certain scenarios, but it IS NOT a heel-and-toe, it's just a rev match.

No...no....it's not "just a rev match". It's braking and blipping the throttle/rev-matching at the same time. It's accomplishes exactly the same thing as what you want to call TRUE heel-and-toe downshifts. EXACTLY the same thing.

Yes, senna rev-matched using a rollover technique on a first (and only) lap in a car where the pedal was still quite firm, as the brakes were cool. However, if you watch the Senna documentary, there is footage in there of him in his F1 McLaren also executing TRUE heel-and-toe downshifts.

You mean to tell me the greatest driver of all time used different techniques to accomplish the same exact result??? Noooooooooooo........no way. Can't be. No way.

Jake.....for Pete's sake, please just accept there are different techniques using the same term. For the love of God man, the proof is staring you in the face!!! Even Senna used different techniques to do the same exact thing!!!

And please share the info on the Senna doc you're talking about, as there is a few of them and I'd like to see it if I've missed it.

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[jake_zx2]

No...no....it's not "just a rev match". It's braking and blipping the throttle/rev-matching at the same time. It's accomplishes exactly the same thing as what you want to call TRUE heel-and-toe downshifts. EXACTLY the same thing.



You mean to tell me the greatest driver of all time used different techniques to accomplish the same exact result??? Noooooooooooo........no way. Can't be. No way.

Jake.....for Pete's sake, please just accept there are different techniques for the same term. For the love of God man, the proof is staring you in the face!!! Even Senna used different techniques to do the same exact thing!!!

Wow, you are a dense one, aren't you?

It may be a rev match while braking, but that's NOT what a HEEL TOE is. Heel toe involves... get this... your HEELS and your TOES

As I've already said (and I'll put it in bold this time, as it seems you have trouble reading), I also use that method. I just only use it in scenarios with low brake pedal travel, which isn't always the case. When the brake travels deeper due to heat building up in the braking system, then I heel-toe

And how do you not realize that YOU are the one who stared telling people that THEY were heel-toeing wrong? I'll quote it again, since you obviously keep missing it

It doesn't require rotating anything. "Heel & toe" is a misnomer, it's actually "Big toe & right side of foot", no contortions are necessary.

And again,

"It doesn't require rotating anything. "Heel & toe" is a misnomer"

And one more time,

""Heel & toe" is a misnomer"

Do you not see how you were telling someone that their understanding of a heel-toe downshift is wrong? So again, Pot, meet Kettle

 

[jake_zx2]

And please share the info on the Senna doc you're talking about, as there is a few of them and I'd like to see it if I've missed it.

In regards to this, it's actually a movie called "Senna", from around 2011 or so. It's fairly expensive for a DVD, but you can usually find them pop up on eBay for $60 or so

Edit: I say "movie", but it's really more of a documentary. I've never been able to find it on YouTube, but there may be some sort of site where you can download it. I've never really messed with that kind of stuff

 

[NoVaGT]

Wow, you are a dense one, aren't you?

It may be a rev match while braking, but that's NOT what a HEEL TOE is. Heel toe involves... get this... your HEELS and your TOES

As I've already said (and I'll put it in bold this time, as it seems you have trouble reading), I also use that method. I just only use it in scenarios with low brake pedal travel, which isn't always the case. When the brake travels deeper due to heat building up in the braking system, then I heel-toe

And how do you not realize that YOU are the one who stared telling people that THEY were heel-toeing wrong? I'll quote it again, since you obviously keep missing it



And again,

"It doesn't require rotating anything. "Heel & toe" is a misnomer"

And one more time,

""Heel & toe" is a misnomer"

Do you not see how you were telling someone that their understanding of a heel-toe downshift is wrong? So again, Pot, meet Kettle

We've been talking about street driving from page one. We're not talking about track driving. And heel & toe is a misnomer, not everyone uses their heel & toe. Especially during street driving.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Actually using the heel and the toe came out of sports car racing - little British, Italian, and German sports roadsters that typically had narrow pedal boxes (wide feet need not apply). My feet are longish but relatively narrow, so I would need to be able to roll my foot through a bigger angle than somebody with wider feet. Fractions of an inch/a few degrees can easily be the make-or-break difference.

I agree that it would be easier with a floor-pivot accelerator. Maybe especially with high-mu track pads where it ought to be a bit easier to maintain constant force on the brake pedal.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

We've been talking about street driving from page one. We're not talking about track driving. And heel & toe is a misnomer, not everyone uses their heel & toe. Especially during street driving.

Sorry, but "heel & toe" is the original term. It's either live with that as a reasonable generic term for all of the variations or invent a new term that eliminates the word "heel" and get lots of people on board with that.

Street vs track . . . why would that matter? How does what you're doing on the street ultimately differ from what somebody else does on the track? Two pedals operated by one foot. This argument over semantics is worse than pointless.


Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

We've been talking about street driving from page one. We're not talking about track driving.

You seem to have missed it in my reply, but the post you originally responded to (on page 1, in fact) actually DID talk about track driving. So, since page 1, we've been talking about street AND track driving.

Norm pretty much took the words out of my mouth for the rest

 

[sw686blue]

Can we get back to discussing the original topic? Jeezus...

 

[boB]

Can we get back to discussing the original topic? Jeezus...

Good idea! Especially since the OP wrote he was not interested in heel/toe.

I changed the oil on my '19 GT today and while under there I looked for any sensors or wiring that looked like it could be a "selected gear sensor". There is a 6 pin connector on top of the transmission that is difficult to see but from just the right angle I could see the wires, the colors appear to match those called out for the "selected gear sensor". The connector plugs into something on top of the xmsn, it could be an add-on or part of the '19 xmsn itself. Removing the xmsn or maybe the shifter would be the only way to see what it is.

 

[sw686blue]

Thanks for checking that out for us! This would be so cool if we can figure out how to retro-fit it for earlier S550s.

 

[Condor1970]

Good idea! Especially since the OP wrote he was not interested in heel/toe.

I changed the oil on my '19 GT today and while under there I looked for any sensors or wiring that looked like it could be a "selected gear sensor". There is a 6 pin connector on top of the transmission that is difficult to see but from just the right angle I could see the wires, the colors appear to match those called out for the "selected gear sensor". The connector plugs into something on top of the xmsn, it could be an add-on or part of the '19 xmsn itself. Removing the xmsn or maybe the shifter would be the only way to see what it is.

I went in, and talked to the Ford Performance Tech at our local Ford/Roush dealer. I told him what I wanted to do, and asked if there was a Ford Performance upgrade kit for the 2018 GT to get the rev matching feature. He looked at his computer which has the schematics of both 2018 and 2019 transmissions respectively. Now, he is very intrigued, because there appears to be no difference between the two. The tranny's are the same, including the sensors.

(OP, I honestly don't know about the 2017 though.)

So, now his interest is really peaked, because he wants to figure out if it can be done. He basically told me, it looks like it's a software upgrade only, and wants to find out if there is a PCM flash to upgrade the files that allow us to do it. He took my info down, and said he wants to do some more research, because he can't see any reason why it can't be done based on the schematics and parts listings. I'll give him a week or two, and see if he gets back to me.

 

[boB]

I went in, and talked to the Ford Performance Tech at our local Ford/Roush dealer. I told him what I wanted to do, and asked if there was a Ford Performance upgrade kit for the 2018 GT to get the rev matching feature. He looked at his computer which has the schematics of both 2018 and 2019 transmissions respectively. Now, he is very intrigued, because there appears to be no difference between the two. The tranny's are the same, including the sensors.

(OP, I honestly don't know about the 2017 though.)

So, now his interest is really peaked, because he wants to figure out if it can be done. He basically told me, it looks like it's a software upgrade only, and wants to find out if there is a PCM flash to upgrade the files that allow us to do it. He took my info down, and said he wants to do some more research, because he can't see any reason why it can't be done based on the schematics and parts listings. I'll give him a week or two, and see if he gets back to me.

It gets funnier: the Electrical section of the Service Manual has a search for component feature. I give it the letter "S" and one of the choices is the "Selected Gear Sensor" but when it is selected the search returns "no component found". The Component Location view pages shows the connector on pg 5 location A5, C1854 above the transmission on the drivers side.
Ok, that's not really funny, is it? ;)

 

[Nickel]

I've seen so many people struggle with this over the years. It was something that I taught myself on the track in a Miata, but I have ridden shotgun with pros and done a lot of karting. There are different techniques for rev matching but a heel toe downshift is pretty much down to one real way of doing it, apart from changing input to skip gears. Senna used this and Keiichi Tsuchiya does this as well. I do it often at Deal's Gap and Wolf Pen Gap. I'll say it's very rewarding with a V8 and a loud exhaust. If you're in NC and you want a friendly lesson, I'm more than happy to teach you. I've watched people who said they could never do it master it. I'm always on a windy back road or gap so if you want to be fast and have both quick corner entry and corner exit, this is a necessary skill.

As far as going so far to retrofit that system, it does seem like too much work when you could learn skillfully and spend no money doing it, and then you'll be proud of yourself for learning it. I hate that newer cars are coming with this feature. It's sort of like when ABS became standard in cars. A person who has mastered the art of braking with no ABS can out brake someone who hasn't and is driving with ABS.

 

[Kong76]

I have a 16' and would love to have this option.

 

[opengl]

I went in, and talked to the Ford Performance Tech at our local Ford/Roush dealer. I told him what I wanted to do, and asked if there was a Ford Performance upgrade kit for the 2018 GT to get the rev matching feature. He looked at his computer which has the schematics of both 2018 and 2019 transmissions respectively. Now, he is very intrigued, because there appears to be no difference between the two. The tranny's are the same, including the sensors.

(OP, I honestly don't know about the 2017 though.)

So, now his interest is really peaked, because he wants to figure out if it can be done. He basically told me, it looks like it's a software upgrade only, and wants to find out if there is a PCM flash to upgrade the files that allow us to do it. He took my info down, and said he wants to do some more research, because he can't see any reason why it can't be done based on the schematics and parts listings. I'll give him a week or two, and see if he gets back to me.

Really good info. Please keep us posted!

And everyone else take the bickering elsewhere. We're all impressed you can heel/toe. We're just talking about retrofitting a factory feature that would be nice to have.

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