Rev Matching Retrofit

[jake_zx2]

I, for the life me, appear to be unable to do this.

Just takes practice (and good ankles, so hope you're young!)

FYI, that's not me in the video. I can heel-toe downshift decently well, but that guy is an absolute god

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[jake_zx2]

That's completely retarded. There's someone that needs their vehicle set-up better.

Or they have extremely tiny feets.

You're joking, right? You HAVE to be joking, I don't think it's possible to be THAT ignorant

Okay, so what if the vehicle isn't engineered to have the pedal at the exact right spot for every braking scenario? Do you just NOT heel-toe downshift because "it's not the right way" in your head, or do you brake lighter so that you can heel toe "the right way" and totally blow your braking zone and end up in the sandtrap?

 

[jake_zx2]

TFW a guy with a BAMA tune and "plush and luxurious floor mats" in his mod list is telling a pro driver how retarded his driving is and how his car should be better set up LMAO

 

[JackImpact]

Just takes practice (and good ankles, so hope you're young!)

FYI, that's not me in the video. I can heel-toe downshift decently well, but that guy is an absolute god

I will give it some more practice. I think its a combination of lack of experience and those sensitive brembo brakes lol

 

[jake_zx2]

I will give it some more practice. I think its a combination of lack of experience and those sensitive brembo brakes lol

Yeah, the Brembos make it really hard to learn that method of heel-toe downshifting on the street... you almost HAVE to be on track for the pedal to be depressed enough for a TRUE heel-toe downshift. On the street, I typically just rev match the way that NOVA explained

 

[NoVaGT]

You're joking, right? You HAVE to be joking, I don't think it's possible to be THAT ignorant

Okay, so what if the vehicle isn't engineered to have the pedal at the exact right spot for every braking scenario? Do you just NOT heel-toe downshift because "it's not the right way" in your head, or do you brake lighter so that you can heel toe "the right way" and totally blow your braking zone and end up in the sandtrap?

I love it when a difference of opinion means the other person is THAT ignorant. It's just a special, special day when that occurs.

I started reading R&T, C&D & MotorTrend back in the early 1980s. And even waaaay back then, this very discussion was exactly the same. It usually started and ended with attempting to define what the term really meant. Some folks claimed one definition, others another.

It seems folks with little feets define it one way, and people with bigger feets define it another way. Little feet people apparently have to twist their ankles and contort their joint to do it, and for people with bigger feet it's just roll over onto the throttle pedal.

But fear not little feets, there's an ap for that!!

Steeda makes their very own pedal set to aid little feets folks, which allows for a gentle roll onto the throttle without having to contort your lower extremities in a fashion that would do a Russian gymnast proud. I'll add that those two pedals look damn near perfectly level with one another.

I'll also guess that Mustangs fitted with Brembos are probably better for heel & toeing. The high, hard brake pedal certainly should help keep the two pedals more level. That's a guess though, as I've never driven a standard GT.

 

[jake_zx2]

I started reading R&T, C&D & MotorTrend back in the early 1980s. And even waaaay back then, this very discussion was exactly the same. It usually started and ended with attempting to define what the term really meant. Some folks claimed one definition, others another.

It seems folks with little feets define it one way, and people with bigger feets define it another way. Little feet people apparently have to twist their ankles and contort their joint to do it, and for people with bigger feet it's just roll over onto the throttle pedal.

But fear not little feets, there's an ap for that!!

Steeda makes their very own pedal set to aid little feets folks, which allows for a gentle roll onto the throttle without having to contort your lower extremities in a fashion that would do a Russian gymnast proud. I'll add that those two pedals look damn near perfectly level with one another.

I'll also guess that Mustangs fitted with Brembos are probably better for heel & toeing. The high, hard brake pedal certainly should help keep the two pedals more level. That's a guess though, as I've never driven a standard GT.

I have big feet

You're wrong

How much time have you actually spent on a road course?

 

[JackImpact]

Yeah, the Brembos make it really hard to learn that method of heel-toe downshifting on the street... you almost HAVE to be on track for the pedal to be depressed enough for a TRUE heel-toe downshift. On the street, I typically just rev match the way that NOVA explained

I sent you a PM if its not too much trouble.

 

[NoVaGT]

I have big feet

You're wrong

How much time have you actually spent on a road course?

"You're wrong".

Try to understand this;

You are not in any position to define or dictate what does or doesn't work for another human being. Whether something does or doesn't work for you, doesn't mean anything about how that same thing works for other people.

My time on a road course is 0, because I know me, and I'd crash. My time heel & toeing hard and fast into corners (including into ABS), is considerable, I've done it for decades. Let's say a few hundred times over the last 32 years of driving.

Lastly, the only person taking this discussion onto a road-course, and not about daily driving, is you. Yeeeees, we all know you love the road-courses. Yeeeeeees, we all bow down to your experience there.

I've played competitive tennis for almost 40 years, including H.S. and College. For every technique there is in the game, and there are many, there's a player that has their own particular take on it. Everyone is different, everyone does things differently. That you put the driver in that video on a Empire State Building pedestal, doesn't mean what they are doing is the only technique that works.

It's just what works for that particular person.

 

[Norm Peterson]

That's completely retarded. There's someone that needs their vehicle set-up better.

Actually, that is the classic "heel-toe", where the technique got its name. It may look strange if you've never driven a car that had its accelerator pedal hinged at the floor. For some, a floor-pivot accelerator pedal would make H-T life easier. Or even possible.

FWIW, pedal spacing started becoming a "safety thing" back in the mid-1980's when Audi ran into trouble with "unintended acceleration" with their model 5000. Pedal positioning was blamed. I'm actually surprised at the pedal spacing and "operating heights" in certain Subarus.


Norm

 

[NoVaGT]

Actually, that is the classic "heel-toe", where the technique got its name. It may look strange if you've never driven a car that had its accelerator pedal hinged at the floor. For some, a floor-pivot accelerator pedal would make H-T life easier. Or even possible.

FWIW, pedal spacing started becoming a "safety thing" back in the mid-1980's when Audi ran into trouble with "unintended acceleration" with their model 5000. Pedal positioning was blamed. I'm actually surprised at the pedal spacing and "operating heights" in certain Subarus.


Norm

Yep, I know all about the 5000s. And the "unintended acceleration" crap. But I wouldn't call that the "classic" definition of heel & toe, as that's been argued about since it's inception as a term. Or at least as far back as the 1980s from my reading.

FWIW, I wish we could go back to floor-mounted pedals, including the clutch. I think they'd work better for me.

 

[jake_zx2]

You are not in any position to define or dictate what does or doesn't work for another human being. Whether something does or doesn't work for you, doesn't mean anything about how that same thing works for other people..

I'm just gonna quote this here real quick...

It doesn't require rotating anything. "Heel & toe" is a misnomer, it's actually "Big toe & right side of foot", no contortions are necessary.

Pot, meet Kettle

"My time on a road course is 0, because I know me, and I'd crash. My time heel & toeing hard and fast into corners (including into ABS), is considerable, I've done it for decades. Let's say a few hundred times over the last 32 years of driving.

So you have no track experience, and therefore have no experience with a situation in which a true heel-toe downshift would be warranted. Glad we got that cleared up

"Lastly, the only person taking this discussion onto a road-course, and not about daily driving, is you. Yeeeees, we all know you love the road-courses. Yeeeeeees, we all bow down to your experience there..

As a matter of fact, let's quote the post that you had originally replied to...

When you get older and the feet just don't want to rotate to properly heel toe anymore, it's not a question of knowing how to drive the car. We are all well aware, and have been driving manuals for decades.
The reason it would be nice to have, is so when we drive spirited in the mountains or at the track, we can properly rev match without causing potential harm to the car when downshifting quickly.

"I've played competitive tennis for almost 40 years, including H.S. and College. For every technique there is in the game, and there are many, there's a player that has their own particular take on it. Everyone is different, everyone does things differently. That you put the driver in that video on a Empire State Building pedestal, doesn't mean what they are doing is the only technique that works.

It's just what works for that particular person.

Yes, you can have your own technique to rev-match. But you say that YOUR way is the correct way to "heel-toe", even though it's not even a heel-toe... the hypocrisy really is quite comical

Bottom line is, the way you heel-toe is wrong, because it's not a heel-toe. Let's use your beloved tennis as an example... If someone says they're going to show you the best technique for a backhand that doesn't require you to cross your body, then does a forehand, are you going to tell them that it's a great backhand technique, or will you tell them that it's actually a forehand?

 

[NoVaGT]

I'm just gonna quote this here real quick..blah-blah-blah-blah...

My reading about sport driving goes back to the 1980s, and even back then the definition of "heel & toeing" had been argued ad nauseam, just as is being done right here, in this thread......for probably about the bazillionth time in the history of automobiles. Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend.....everyone one of the driving rags has had repeated articles over the decades that discussed the different definitions of the term. And for at least the last 40+ years they all acknowledged that the term has different definitions for different people.

Something you seem incapable of doing.

Using a backhand and a forehand as examples of different techniques for the same specific action would be wrong, like attempting to say that shifting or steering is simply a different technique for heel & toeing. We're not talking about completely different parts of driving or playing tennis, we're talking about one very specific action that can be done with different techniques.

Heel & toeing is done differently by different people, therefore the term has different meanings for different people. You can either turn blue in the face from holding your breath denying that fact, or you can relax and accept that reality.

Just as some frosting, here's a video of Ayerton Senna, the greatest driver of all time, heel & toeing the same way I do. So please, go ahead and explain how what he's doing is wrong, and/or shouldn't be called "heel & toeing". Surely you're correct, and Senna isn't really heel & toeing.

He must have no track experience, and therefore have no experience with a situation in which a true heel-toe downshift would be warranted. That useless noob!!!



Also, in case your memory is fading, yes Senna's F1 cars were manual transmissioned, not flappy padeled. So yes, he "heel & toed" on the track;

 

[NoVaGT]

Double post.

 

[jake_zx2]

My reading about sport driving goes back to the 1980s, and even back then the definition of "heel & toeing" had been argued ad nauseam, just as is being done right here, in this thread......for probably about the bazillionth time in the history of automobiles. Car & Driver, Road & Track, Motor Trend.....everyone one of the driving rags has had repeated articles over the decades that discussed the different definitions of the term. And for at least the last 40+ years they all acknowledged that the term has different definitions for different people.

Something you seem incapable of doing

The technique is literally in the name... HEEL and TOE. The rollover technique that you use (and as I have said, I also use) is effective in certain scenarios, but it IS NOT a heel-and-toe, it's just a rev match.

Just as some frosting, here's a video of Ayerton Senna, the greatest driver of all time, heel & toeing the same way I do. So please, go ahead and explain how what he's doing is wrong, and/or shouldn't be called "heel & toeing". Surely you're correct, and Senna isn't really heel & toeing.

Yes, senna rev-matched using a rollover technique on a first (and only) lap in a car where the pedal was still quite firm, as the brakes were cool. However, if you watch the Senna documentary, there is footage in there of him in his F1 McLaren also executing TRUE heel-and-toe downshifts

But you know, "HiS cAr Is SeT uP wRoNg AnD hEs ReTaRdEd"

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