7 speed DCT vs 10r80 for Drag racing? Road racing?

[Rothgray]

Because it's clearly a discrete category . Why dump it into an old classification where it doesn't share several core characteristics? Just like we use discrete categories/labels for various computing devices, because while they may share some features: CPU/GPU, RAM/flash-storage, the use cases, specific capabilities, and exact implementation details make them clearly different device types.

I know, I know ... "I've been driving for 45 years!!!"

I agree

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[Norm Peterson]

Because it's clearly a discrete category . Why dump it into an old classification where it doesn't share several core characteristics?

How can having a task that is either automated for you or left for you to do manually be anything but binary? Left or right? Up or down? One thing or the other? Automatic or manual?

It's not about detail differences in internal design - it's about where the control logic and power to accomplish what the control logic lies. Either internal to the driver (manual) or within the device/electromechanical system (automatic). There is no third possibility.

Now if somebody was to design a DCT that had its clutches and gear (synchro) engagement accomplished purely by mechanical means directly connected to the driver's foot and hand controls - no electronic or hydraulic logic at all - I'd be more than willing to call that a manual.


Norm

 

[Rothgray]

I do not see how hard this is to understand. It is a different transmission archetype. It mechanical shares more with a manual than it does an automatic. From an engineering perspective.

From a use perspective it is automatic when placed in a drive mode. It is manual when in a manual mode.

Clicking a paddle is still a manual action. It is relying on the drivers input to change the gear.

Perhaps we need to rename our transmissions?

Traditional manual should be called clutch based manual gearbox
Automatic should be called torque converter planetary gear assembly
DCT it’s own type
And CVT its own

But this is getting really ridiculous. The facts are this. The dct will outdo a clutch based manual gearbox in all driving situations.

If you want real controversy. I do not like cheese on my pizza. I scrape it off.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

I do not like cheese on my pizza. I scrape it off.

Let me ask you this? Do you scrape it off ... manually?

I ask because I use an automated cheese scraper.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I do not see how hard this is to understand. It is a different transmission archetype. It mechanical shares more with a manual than it does an automatic. From a mechanical engineering perspective.

Fixed.

From a use perspective it is automatic when placed in a drive mode. It is manual when in a manual mode.

Clicking a paddle is still a manual action. It is relying on the drivers input to change the gear.

Almost there. The driver's input on a paddle does not directly move anything internal to the transmission. It commands a module to send appropriate signals to the transmission's electro-mechanicals instead.

But this is getting really ridiculous. The facts are this. The dct will outdo a clutch based manual gearbox in all driving situations.

Ridiculous is always falling back on this argument.


Norm

 

[Rothgray]

Fixed.



Almost there. The driver's input on a paddle does not directly move anything internal to the transmission. It commands a module to send appropriate signals to the transmission's electro-mechanicals instead.




Ridiculous is always falling back on this argument.


Norm

It’s not ridiculous when it’s the truth. It’s been proven time and time again the average driver will upshift around 500ms. An absolute pro around 350. Dcts 150ms and less.

It’s onky ridiculous to you because it cannot be debated.

And I respectfully disagree. Engaging the paddle still commands the transmission to change gears. Yes there is electronic control. Technology has advanced.

 

[Rothgray]

Let me ask you this? Do you scrape it off ... manually?

I ask because I use an automated cheese scraper.

If you can link this device, I will buy it

 

[Epiphany]

I do not like cheese on my pizza. I scrape it off.

 

[Rothgray]

I'm waiting for the new debate "well, thats not pizza, thats just a bread stick!" ;)

 

[Andy13186]

It’s not ridiculous when it’s the truth. It’s been proven time and time again the average driver will upshift around 500ms. An absolute pro around 350. Dcts 150ms and less.

It’s onky ridiculous to you because it cannot be debated.

And I respectfully disagree. Engaging the paddle still commands the transmission to change gears. Yes there is electronic control. Technology has advanced.

"commands the transmission to change gears" same as with a normal auto in paddle mode. You arent manually changing the gears you are command the computer to, and you can also just put it in auto mode. Its so simple, I dont know how people can even argue its a manual transmission lol.

I find that pretty insulting to manual transmission drivers since they are a much bigger part of the process. DCT drivers are the exact same percent of the shifting process as an automatic transmission driver with paddle mode, or even without paddle mode when your dct is set to auto. But go ahead living in denial if you want.

 

[Rothgray]

"commands the transmission to change gears" same as with a normal auto in paddle mode. You arent manually changing the gears you are command the computer to, and you can also just put it in auto mode. Its so simple, I dont know how people can even argue its a manual transmission lol.

I find that pretty insulting to manual transmission drivers since they are a much bigger part of the process. DCT drivers are the exact same percent of the shifting process as an automatic transmission driver with paddle mode, or even without paddle mode when your dct is set to auto. But go ahead living in denial if you want.

Perhaps the manual transmission owners should host a march.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It’s not ridiculous when it’s the truth. It’s been proven time and time again the average driver will upshift around 500ms. An absolute pro around 350. Dcts 150ms and less.

It’s onky ridiculous to you because it cannot be debated.

How many times are you going to go to that well, and how many times do I have to tell you that I'm not arguing the matter of shift times. Yes, a DCT shifts quicker. Satisfied now?

But unless you're competing in a timed, sanctioned event with contingencies and/or finishing positions at stake and being able to shift quicker actually means something of tangible value, "saving" a third of a second per shift rates a big "so what?".

And I respectfully disagree. Engaging the paddle still commands the transmission to change gears. Yes there is electronic control. Technology has advanced.

Advanced transmission technology = automation because it has taken the direct mechanical control away from the driver. That's an automatic for you, fully so in 'D' or any other fully automatic mode, less so but still under automated control with the paddles. That a DCT has shift forks and synchros instead of planetary gear sets, clutches, and brakes or bands is irrelevant.

I just don't understand all this reluctance to calling a DCT an automatic, when from the driver's seat it works so much like a conventional automatic with paddles and so little like a conventional MT. If it's so much better technologically, why would you ever want to lump it in the same category with such a far less technologically-evolved transmission type?


Norm

 

[Eritas]

So how can you call automated gear or pulley ratio selection anything but automatic?


Norm

You don't still call a throttle body a carburetor, do you? They both determine the amount of air entering the engine based off the inputs from your foot.

Do you call superchargers "blowers" and argue the lack of low-end torque of centrifugal superchargers when talking about a roots style supercharger?

Do you call an IRS a "rear axle"?

Advanced transmission technology = automation because it has taken the direct mechanical control away from the driver. That's an automatic for you, fully so in 'D' or any other fully automatic mode, less so but still under automated control with the paddles. That a DCT has shift forks and synchros instead of planetary gear sets, clutches, and brakes or bands is irrelevant.

I just don't understand all this reluctance to calling a DCT an automatic, when from the driver's seat it works so much like a conventional automatic with paddles and so little like a conventional MT. If it's so much better technologically, why would you ever want to lump it in the same category with such a far less technologically-evolved transmission type?


Norm

Because it's ignorant.

What do you call the transmission in most profesional race cars? There's a clutch to get going then paddles without the clutch from there on out.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You don't still call a throttle body a carburetor, do you? They both determine the amount of air entering the engine based off the inputs from your foot.

No, but actually a carburetor is a very specific kind of throttle body in that it also includes vacuum-caused fuel delivery. That would make the carburetor a subset of throttle body. Low-pressure throttle-body injection would be a different subset.

Do you call superchargers "blowers" and argue the lack of low-end torque of centrifugal superchargers when talking about a roots style supercharger?

Nope. When I talk about them at all (which isn't all that often) I call them either superchargers or simply 'forced induction'.

Do you call an IRS a "rear axle"?

No, I don't.. And with the occasional exception of "twist-beam axles" such as are found at the rear of FWD cars, I don't even call any of the various stick-axle suspensions by anything including the word 'axle' either.

For the drive components on any independently sprung end of a vehicle, I'll refer to 'half-shafts' or whatever other specific component is under discussion. Always.

What do you call the transmission in most profesional race cars? There's a clutch to get going then paddles without the clutch from there on out.

A gearbox. But if I was to find out that full automatic capability was included I'd still consider them automatics even if the race drivers never used them in any automatic mode.


I just don't understand the resistance to categorizing a transmission that can fully automate the shifting for you anything but an automatic. Yeah, I get that using a term that's been in existence for decades already doesn't sound very cutting-edge or high-tech. That's not the DCT's problem.


Norm

 

[sdiver68]

The simple reason people dont want to call DCT an automatic is pure old school bias against automatics.

The ironic thing is, modern "manuals" feature mechanical and computer controlled helpers that take all the skill out of them. Syncros, rev-matching downshift, engine cut speed shifting, launch control, hill assist, rev limiters, etc...

Basically, some people want a stick in their hand and a 3rd pedal.

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