Driver 8
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2016
- Threads
- 16
- Messages
- 217
- Reaction score
- 121
- Location
- Tampa Bay Area
- Vehicle(s)
- 335i Coupe
- Thread starter
- #31
As the OP I appreciate the dialogue. This is what I was hoping to achieve.
Sponsored
Sponsored
Nameless
Well-Known Member
Do you guys realize that the Camaro ZL1-1LE uses a manual only (and not the A10 like the regular ZL1) right? Don’t you think that there should be a reason for that? I heard that GM realized that it was not “that good” around track (I mean, it’s as good as it can be, but GM wanted a little more with the 1LE. Ford is not making that mistake so that’s why they are going for the DCT)….. or maybe it was because of heat management.
Or maybe they didn’t.
machsmith
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2016
- Threads
- 11
- Messages
- 3,608
- Reaction score
- 2,039
- Location
- somewhere along the river
- First Name
- Jim
- Vehicle(s)
- Honda Minis
I had the A10 in my Raptor. It was ok for a truck, but the down shift hesitation (although programmed slightly different that a camaro, I'm sure) was shitty, and slow. You wouldn't want it in a track car...you'd be pissed at it.
It MIGHT be better than this DCT on the street and possibly for drag racing, but nobody knows what this DCT can do yet. We'll see.
It MIGHT be better than this DCT on the street and possibly for drag racing, but nobody knows what this DCT can do yet. We'll see.
DickR
Well-Known Member
Don't know but it also doesn't have a DCT, correct? So no help on heat comparison between DCT and A10.
FYI I cannot find the link but Al Oppenheiser, Camaro Chief Engineer was quoted in one magazine review that the reason for manual only was simply that is what the track users want and they aren't trying to sell these to the daily driver market.
DickR
Well-Known Member
FYI I just took a drive in my A10 Mustang GTPP using primarily track drive mode in S transmission mode. Keep in mind that I have no performance DCT experience. I do have Hewland dog ring no clutch shifting experience with an H pattern shifter but no automatic throttle cut to allow full throttle shifting and no automatic throttle blipping system like some race cars use.
1) Paddle downshifts in track mode at full throttle but well below max revs for the lower gear are close to "instant". Certainly no delay between paddle movement and shift initiation. When I shifted at road speeds high enough that the revs in the lower gear would be relatively high such as 6k in the lower gear it took "slightly" longer to complete the shift as the computer and engine and trans combo did the shift, rev increase, and trans clutch modulation to keep the rear tires from "locking".
Remember this was with the throttle floored. Certainly MUCH faster than could be done with a traditional manual transmission, with or without using the clutch, assuming some sort of throttle blip to keep the rear tires from "locking". Having no experience with a performance DCT I don't know how one could be programmed to do full throttle downshifts any faster unless the involved parts in the engine and trans can change rpm faster due to inertia differences.2) Downshifts with no throttle under braking were initiated immediately when the paddles were actuated unless the road speed was too high for the lower gear and there was no apparent delay in completion beyond the momentary time needed to match revs.
3) Part throttle manual downshifts such as when cruising in a taller gear than you will want for the next corner generally are initiated immediately and completed with no delay. However for these the driver does have to adjust the throttle position if the goal is to maintain speed. Being smooth with this kind of shift seems (because I haven't tested this enough to have a good opinion) a bit tricky . . . just like it is with a traditional manual transmission.
Anyway, just some observations from someone who has what appears to be a "performing as intended" A10 in a Mustang GTPP. I hope it is useful to the OP and others.
Sponsored
Sponsored
nastang87xx
Well-Known Member
This is correct.FYI I cannot find the link but Al Oppenheiser, Camaro Chief Engineer was quoted in one magazine review that the reason for manual only was simply that is what the track users want and they aren't trying to sell these to the daily driver market.
And actually...........I'm kinda considering a ZL1 1LE.
I'm just getting to the point where I want power power power power and track like a mofo. I'd just hook up with one of the guys or gals of SSC class in autocross to get my parking lot shenanigans on.
w3rkn
Well-Known Member
Essentially. But it doesn't need to be an automatic, it could be a solenoid-operated manual gearbox. No linkage, shift to whatever gear you throw the pseudo-shift box into. (The "differences" between a "assisted manual" gearbox like the DCT and an automatic don't really matter here, only that they start to offer non-sequential manuals.)
Because, I like to short shift &/or choose MY own gears, not hit paddle shifters and stroke sequentially threw a 10-speed auto...
And yes, for all intense and purpose a fully controllable automatic using a manual row box to select gears non-sequentially or at will, is what I am asking for. Technically (at this point) if it is DCT, or a new-gen auto, I don't care.
Because one of the joys of ownership comes from knowing the car-engine-transmission. I like to row my own gears and the only way I could live with a clutchless powertrain. So anything close to operating fully like a manual row box, but gates & gears are electronically controlled. And like a true manual & while not in any gear... it is in neutral and free revving.
Just like any modern transmission it can do aggressive, or simple rev matches and snaps to whatever ever gear you bang on with the shifter.
The end-user bliss would being able to program how you like the shift points matrix to look like. (To suite your style of driving. When on it hard, it can snap gear sharply, while in soft play, it shifts slower and less abrupt for when in town, etc.)
Or even if the A10 allowed you to skip gears if you double triggered it, etc.
Concrete GT
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2016
- Threads
- 3
- Messages
- 461
- Reaction score
- 243
- Location
- Central Florida
- Vehicle(s)
- 2015 Mustang GT Ruby Red Vert
My experience is kind the same with the A10. Although I don't have a ton of seat time in it and drive it in Track with Advance trac turned all the way off. What I find is that no matter what I get pretty quick response using the paddles to downshift almost anywhere in the RPM range.......Upshifts sometimes take an eternity though when using the paddles although they get a little quicker if you keep driving pretty aggressively.....It almost makes me wish I could let it upshift in auto mode and downshift with the paddles :shrug:FYI I just took a drive in my A10 Mustang GTPP using primarily track drive mode in S transmission mode. Keep in mind that I have no performance DCT experience. I do have Hewland dog ring no clutch shifting experience with an H pattern shifter but no automatic throttle cut to allow full throttle shifting and no automatic throttle blipping system like some race cars use.
1) Paddle downshifts in track mode at full throttle but well below max revs for the lower gear are close to "instant". Certainly no delay between paddle movement and shift initiation. When I shifted at road speeds high enough that the revs in the lower gear would be relatively high such as 6k in the lower gear it took "slightly" longer to complete the shift as the computer and engine and trans combo did the shift, rev increase, and trans clutch modulation to keep the rear tires from "locking".
2) Downshifts with no throttle under braking were initiated immediately when the paddles were actuated unless the road speed was too high for the lower gear and there was no apparent delay in completion beyond the momentary time needed to match revs.
3) Part throttle manual downshifts such as when cruising in a taller gear than you will want for the next corner generally are initiated immediately and completed with no delay. However for these the driver does have to adjust the throttle position if the goal is to maintain speed. Being smooth with this kind of shift seems (because I haven't tested this enough to have a good opinion) a bit tricky . . . just like it is with a traditional manual transmission.
Anyway, just some observations from someone who has what appears to be a "performing as intended" A10 in a Mustang GTPP. I hope it is useful to the OP and others.
Falc'man
Well-Known Member
It sounds as though this A10 isn't without its flaws.
I don't understand the logic of having so many gears when the torque band and tractability from low rpm has become so efficient thanks to the focus of "downspeeding". The more power you have the less gears you need.
If dawdling around town is going to find me the absolute best gear/rpm for the best fuel economy then you can keep it when/if at ten tenths it proves to be a pita.
The DCT, if done properly, will be a much better option for the 500, more exclusive and desirable. The "difficulties" may also give the car some character as well.
I don't understand the logic of having so many gears when the torque band and tractability from low rpm has become so efficient thanks to the focus of "downspeeding". The more power you have the less gears you need.
If dawdling around town is going to find me the absolute best gear/rpm for the best fuel economy then you can keep it when/if at ten tenths it proves to be a pita.
The DCT, if done properly, will be a much better option for the 500, more exclusive and desirable. The "difficulties" may also give the car some character as well.
Hi-PO Stang
Well-Known Member
I would not be surprised to hear Ford is evaluating a DCT , but I don't think it will be available for first couple of years of GT500 production. I think the Tremec MT and Ford A10 will be used for first couple years or three.
Sponsored