No manual transmission, only 7 speed DCT?

[GTthree50]

Not you at all. I was referring to the reviewer in that Ferrari video.

You use your Shelby with the same attitude and involvement expectation that I have when I use any of my cars.


Norm

Noted and apologies. With respect to the floor shifter vs. paddles I’d go floor/console shifter. But with that said, the setup needs to be intuitive and user friendly. It has driven me nuts to the point of not wanting to bother with BMW manual mode where upshifts happen when pulling down vs pushing up line most Japanese cars. Pulling back to upshift seems backward though I know race cars are set up that way but it’s about intuitive use and I think an up shift should be in the upward direction with a down shift pulling back in the downward direction. Paddles to my thinking are an affectation and quite simply more marketing for street cars than really useful. Also depending on the execution of the manufacturer can be less or more user friendly.

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[Ebm]

Automatics are for a lesser class of person. I drive a manual with my pinkies up so people know my status. Ain't no slush boxes here!

(PS: I do enjoy the M6 and the A10, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say the DCT will be good as well!)

 

[SVTSNAKE355]

Automatics are for a lesser class of person. I drive a manual with my pinkies up so people know my status. Ain't no slush boxes here!

(PS: I do enjoy the M6 and the A10, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say the DCT will be good as well!)

That's right. MR.SCARFACE

 

[Stuntman]

What's the fastest manual car on track? The Viper ACR-E? At these speeds, manual transmissions are too busy. But if you want "engagement" when driving relatively slow on the street, these hypercar capable cars are probably not for you anyway, when you're already over 100mph in 3rd gear.

 

[Hack]

What's the fastest manual car on track? The Viper ACR-E? At these speeds, manual transmissions are too busy. But if you want "engagement" when driving relatively slow on the street, these hypercar capable cars are probably not for you anyway, when you're already over 100mph in 3rd gear.

I remember a recent Motor Trend review of some version of the 911 both with manual and DCT. The road course performance was very close between the two with Randy P. driving. A manual will provide more challenge to a less accomplished driver, but it is possible to drive them very quickly on track.

 

[Stuntman]

I remember a recent Motor Trend review of some version of the 911 both with manual and DCT. The road course performance was very close between the two with Randy P. driving. A manual will provide more challenge to a less accomplished driver, but it is possible to drive them very quickly on track.

911's are slow and the GT3 is torqueless with only 500hp. I'm talking about the 600-700+ cars where gear ratios are so wide in manual transmissions that you'll be going 100+ by 3rd gear and it wouldn't be that much more 'engaging' to drive. I've read where some people complain the GT350's gearing is too wide because 2nd gear goes to nearly 80mph, and you're not shifting nearly as much as a torqueless car, especially those with no power.

Heck, the Viper goes 90mph in 2nd gar. On Angels Crest, you'd almost never get out of 2nd gear and there's not too many places to take 3rd gear up to 120mph, let alone 3rd gear's 140mph top speed. The GT500 is going to have over 100hp on a Viper and likely more torque. A manual transmission in cars this powerful with this much torque are not that engaging to drive when 2nd gear can land you a ticket and 3rd gear in jail.

 

[Norm Peterson]

911's are slow and the GT3 is torqueless with only 500hp. I'm talking about the 600-700+ cars where gear ratios are so wide in manual transmissions that you'll be going 100+ by 3rd gear and it wouldn't be that much more 'engaging' to drive.

Perhaps not, if 'more engaging' is being measured only by the number of shifts per lap. But that's not really the point, since what you're ultimately trying to do is keep the engine in the happiest portion of its power curve for the maximum time reasonably possible, and doing so lap after lap after . . .

I've read where some people complain the GT350's gearing is too wide because 2nd gear goes to nearly 80mph, and you're not shifting nearly as much as a torqueless car, especially those with no power.

I'll give you that there's a big space between 1st and 2nd, but that's only between those two gears. It actually makes 2nd a useful gear for road course use, given that there aren't all that many corners that'll have you down below 50 mph (where you might want something a bit shorter).

Heck, the Viper goes 90mph in 2nd gar. On Angels Crest, you'd almost never get out of 2nd gear and there's not too many places to take 3rd gear up to 120mph, let alone 3rd gear's 140mph top speed.

I'm not at all familiar with Angels Crest, but it sounds like a very tight, very technical track with no straights of much consequence. Not really an ideal venue for a very powerful car regardless of its transmission type or the number of gears it might have. Sort of like trying to play 4 on 4 hockey on a frozen-over backyard pool, if that analogy makes sense.

The GT500 is going to have over 100hp on a Viper and likely more torque. A manual transmission in cars this powerful with this much torque are not that engaging to drive when 2nd gear can land you a ticket and 3rd gear in jail.

Simply using high rpms isn't a very good measure of 'driver engagement' either. Keeping the engine happy at a slower (or much slower) pace is. At least it can be, if you - the driver - choose to let it. And I'll even extend this to driving in traffic that rarely gets above 35 mph. In the 'right' gear for conditions, all the time.

For street driving you have to stop thinking about redlining it in any gear anyway. Half of redline is plenty, and sometimes even that's more than necessary. Then, too, if you're out there on a road course with such a car, you might come to realize that you don't have to play at being a race car driver in your street driving any longer.


Norm

 

[Stuntman]

If shifting isn't what makes manual tranamissions "engaging", then what is?

My point is, long gears and a ton of power means less shifting. Defeating the purpose of the argument for a manual to begin with.

 

[Dub347sbf]

If shifting isn't what makes manual tranamissions "engaging", then what is?

My point is, long gears and a ton of power means less shifting. Defeating the purpose of the argument for a manual to begin with.

I agree with the long gear argument, but also understand the reason it is done on street cars. I disagree with "911s are slow". I mean come on, no they aren't, and if we are only talking base cars, then we need to be talking base mustangs and not GT500s.
I'm not a Porsche apologist or anything, just can't throw that around, the Cayman GTS cars are nice around the track for 80k.
I don't see a high torque positive displacement blower high displacement (for the time) v8 being geared anywhere close to perfect for road courses. Its going to have long gears so people don't wreck the car on the streets and they still will. I am more curious if the 10 speed can handle the torque and maybe thats why they have brought down the power goal. Everyone im pretty sure knows a Ford 5.2 blown can hit 800 plus pretty easily and reliably with the correct fuel system behind it.

 

[Norm Peterson]

If shifting isn't what makes manual tranamissions "engaging", then what is?

Making sure that the transmission is in whatever gear is appropriate for the conditions of the moment. Speed, road/track conditions, other traffic, even your state-of-mind of the moment go into defining what "appropriate" might be.

This could mean as few as one upshift and one downshift per lap on a track that doesn't have very slow corners or long straights - or over 50 total shifts (up + down combined) per mile in heavy traffic that refuses to maintain anywhere near steady speed. I've seen both of those extremes, and when those are the conditions neither the near-lack of shifting or what probably sounds like an excessive amount of it feels wrong. Wrong would be to force yourself to shift too many times on the track, or not often enough in that traffic situation.

My point is, long gears and a ton of power means less shifting. Defeating the purpose of the argument for a manual to begin with.

I think you're hung up on some mistaken notion that the number of times you shift is an end in itself, rather than the part of the process of driving where it's on you to keep the engine operating where response appropriate for the situation (including the part where you shift in anticipation of an upcoming need to do so) is always available.


Norm

 

[Stuntman]

I think you're hung up on some mistaken notion that the number of times you shift is an end in itself, rather than the part of the process of driving where it's on you to keep the engine operating where response appropriate for the situation (including the part where you shift in anticipation of an upcoming need to do so) is always available.

Norm

You can do that with the paddles on a DCT. The argument for manuals is doing it with your foot and hand. But if you don't shift much at all when 2nd gear is more than fast enough for ALL legal street driving, then what's the point? People DO complain about cars like the GT350 & Viper and say the gears are too long. The GT500 would be no exception.

I guess you cant make everyone happy and people will always find something to complain about.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You can do that with the paddles on a DCT. The argument for manuals is doing it with your foot and hand.

Really not the same thing . . . paddles are nothing more than glorified microswitches where the only things that need to be physically moved to make things happen are a few grams worth of switch contact.

But if you don't shift much at all when 2nd gear is more than fast enough for ALL legal street driving, then what's the point?

How does that matter at all, unless you have some irrational need to never use any gear higher than 2nd to get up to cruising speed? Does every street start have to mimic the first 600 feet of a drag race?

People DO complain about cars like the GT350 & Viper and say the gears are too long. The GT500 would be no exception.

I can't do much about the complaining of others, except to suggest that what they thought they wanted in a race car is mismatched to what they expect from a street car. Or possibly that the car itself isn't as well suited to the way they're inclined to drive their local track as they'd hoped.

For a GT350R with 3.73's in the axle and 315/30-19's, you actually get to use four different gears once your track speed ranges from below 50 mph to anything above about 135 mph. Three different gears on a track tight enough to hold top speeds below that. Truth be told, you might even be a bit busy on some tracks, because the 30 mph or so that each gear is worth over the next lower gear comes up fairly quickly with GT350/Viper/etc. power (and you'll still have to downshift for any corner that follows much of a straight).


Norm

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Does every street start have to mimic the first 600 feet of a drag race?

This is a performance car forum. So the answer is: In a perfect world, yes.

 

[Norm Peterson]

This is a performance car forum. So the answer is: In a perfect world, yes.

It is also a forum for discussing the use of that performance in its proper times and places, and where street racing is strongly frowned upon. That perfect world of yours would be a perfectly irresponsible and inconsiderate one. A mobile form of anarchy.


Norm

 

[HoosierDaddy]

It is also a forum where using that performance has its times and places, and where street racing is strongly frowned upon. That perfect world of yours would be a perfectly irresponsible and inconsiderate one. A mobile form of anarchy.

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