Chevy Camaro Chief Engineer on Mustang

[TURTL3]

This was a sad thing to watch, too. I think it was an excellent engine that was suddenly a bastard step-child. I miss that startup sound in the mornings...not that sound is everything, but the 2.3 just can't match it.

That's a good point in also highlighting how the Mustang could have beat both low end Camaro offerings by using the EB and 3.7 as two sides of the same coin. For example,

Level 1 (entry): Base V6, V6 performance pack
Level 2 (mid): EB base, premium, perf pack, premium performance pack
Level 3 (top): Every trim under the sun

I feel like between level 1 and 2 you've got a V6 that offers an interesting value proposition and with a performance pack, would offer up a really great value as a budget sports car. No premium packs, just base and performance.Level 2 gives you more torque, better fuel economy and more premium features. Level 3 speaks for itself. At that point, you've offered a better value than GM at every level. I wonder how many Camaro RS owners would be in a Mustang instead if they could at least get a performance pack. The GT is king of course, but I can't help but feel like Ford fumbled their lower level trims and instead of resoundingly kicking GM's ass, they left the door open a bit. I think GM beefing up their turbo offering is proof that they will try to make up ground in that segment.

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[99Zeus99]

You must not have spent a lot of time here. Mods have had to step in dozens of times because the 5.0 gang can't go 5 minutes without swinging their V8s around and slapping them on the table. I agree that the unit sales are close, but my point from that is that their closeness signals to the viability of a lower trim level Mustang, whether it be a V6 or turbo 4. I've never seen in all my years a community of enthusiasts that have such a poor attitude towards lower trims. With Ford eliminating small car sales, it's crucial to me that they continue to develop the Ecoboost into an affordable volume seller. If you're Ford and you think your foot is on the neck of Chevy, now is the time to twist and push harder and they're going to have to add value to the Ecoboost in order to do that. The 5.0 alone will not accomplish that goal.

Dang you guys are touchy. Nobody is really hating on anyone for their car choice, it's just a little jabbing at each other for fun. My first Mustang was a V8 but it was a 1977 Mustang II Hatch It was a hideous AMC looking pile of rusted orange shit, but it was all I had and the horse was on the grille. I had lots of fun with that car. It's a generational thing that is exacerbated by guys who grew up in the 70's/80's like myself that had to see muscle cars get neutered and turn into square boring piles of shit. A cool car is a cool car. When a guy in at GT350 or Vette pull up, I don't feel they are looking down on me. If they do, I just laugh at their bald spot and corrective lenses

 

[fkscreennames]

Dang you guys are touchy. Nobody is really hating on anyone for their car choice, it's just a little jabbing at each other for fun.

There's nothing wrong with friendly banter, but his point is that there are a lot of V8 snobs who don't see the V6/Ecoboost as a real Mustang. Which is true, these people exist, they also exist in the Camaro & Challenger world.

 

[TURTL3]

There's nothing wrong with friendly banter, but his point is that there are a lot of V8 snobs who don't see the V6/Ecoboost as a real Mustang. Which is true, these people exist, they also exist in the Camaro & Challenger world.

Right. I don't want to get into yet another inter-model bashing thing, so I tried to keep my posts on point about how I feel that the battle against GM is going to be won on the low-end.

 

[Hack]

I think the fact that 50% are sold as V8s means that Ford is charging too much for the EB right now.

 

[fkscreennames]

The 4 banger 1LE is going to be a cool fucking car. I wonder if Ford would consider tweaking the Ecoboost PP with stuff from the PP2 to compete with the new Camaro. This is why I love the Camaro, I think it's fantastic that the 1LE is not an option for the top the trim only, but for EVERY trim (now).

 

[TURTL3]

The 4 banger 1LE is going to be a cool fucking car. I wonder if Ford would consider tweaking the Ecoboost PP with stuff from the PP2 to compete with the new Camaro. This is why I love the Camaro, I think it's fantastic that the 1LE is not an option for the top the trim only, but for EVERY trim (now).

Not to mention, where is the marketing? An Ecoboost is the perfect competitor to the BRZ/FRS. Everyone complains those cars are too pricey and too slow. The Ecoboost can not only offer more power, space and competition in handling, but it's also RWD and manual. The GT fights in the heavyweight class, but the Ecoboost can compete against hot hatches and the BRZ/WRX JDM crowd. But there's no marketing there. Most of the marketing for the S550 is GT, which I understand. But if Ford put little more effort into trying to convert the Euro and JDM crowd, I think they could start biting into those buyers and stealing them away. Hell, I've owned nothing but Volkswagens and tuned all of them. When I got a Mustang, people were shocked. Ford stole me away from my comfort zone because I saw how much of a value the S550 is.

The GT is well sorted. Everyone loves the 5.0 and they should. They've won the heavyweight fights. The low end is wide open but I don't think Ford is taking it as seriously as they should be.

 

[iSpeed27]

Not to mention, where is the marketing? An Ecoboost is the perfect competitor to the BRZ/FRS. Everyone complains those cars are too pricey and too slow. The Ecoboost can not only offer more power, space and competition in handling, but it's also RWD and manual. The GT fights in the heavyweight class, but the Ecoboost can compete against hot hatches and the BRZ/WRX JDM crowd. But there's no marketing there. Most of the marketing for the S550 is GT, which I understand. But if Ford put little more effort into trying to convert the Euro and JDM crowd, I think they could start biting into those buyers and stealing them away. Hell, I've owned nothing but Volkswagens and tuned all of them. When I got a Mustang, people were shocked. Ford stole me away from my comfort zone because I saw how much of a value the S550 is.

https://jalopnik.com/dear-car-companies-stop-punishing-employees-for-drivin-1746653093

This article might seem like it's off topic but, if you think about that kind of mindset, it answers your question.

 

[TURTL3]

https://jalopnik.com/dear-car-companies-stop-punishing-employees-for-drivin-1746653093

This article might seem like it's off topic but, if you think about that kind of mindset, it answers your question.

I read that! Yeah it's a crazy story (you know unions have to be in the mix) but I mean more so in the wild. I know Mustangs are at certain drift events and stuff, but I'll explain my Mustang to my JDM/Euro friends and they kind of go "Ohhhhhh. Interesting" but I realize they wouldn't have searched out that info on their own. They're too entrenched in their own brand cultures. I kind of have to play salesman and go "Look how awesome these S550s are!" Ford should be trying to reach these people. I can't think of any way that they're even trying to.

 

[iSpeed27]

They're not, but that's becasue they don't think they need to. They're stuck in the same kind of mindset that Harley Davidson suffers from. In their eyes everyone wants a V8, no one would actually want anything other than a V8, so what's the point in trying to develop anything other than more V8s? The only reason why the FiST, FoST, and Focus RS exist is because of Ford Europe. To them, the Mustang EcoBoost doesn't need to be anything more than what it currently is because, in their eyes, the only reason why people buy them is either because they can't afford the V8 or they're buying it for their teenage kids.

 

[TURTL3]

They're not, but that's becasue they don't think they need to. They're stuck in the same kind of mindset that Harley Davidson suffers from. In their eyes everyone wants a V8, no one would actually want anything other than a V8, so what's the point in trying to develop anything other than more V8s? The only reason why the FiST, FoST, and Focus RS exist is because of Ford Europe. To them, the Mustang EcoBoost doesn't need to be anything more than what it currently is because, in their eyes, the only reason why people buy them is either because they can't afford the V8 or they're buying it for their teenage kids.

Well put. In my eyes, when you develop a platform as versatile as the S550, you wring it out to the last drip and get as much out of it as you can. Ford doesn't feel that way.

 

[EcoVert]

Not to mention, where is the marketing?
.

Along with everything else Hackett has cut he has cut advertising in half. All the advertising I see is for the F150 or the suv's I have not seen advertising for Mustang in years. I see lot of Mustang advertising on YouTube. I think someone at Ford has decided to let YouTube do all the advertising for Mustang while you see Vin Diesel on the TV all the time advertising for Dodge that's why Challenger sales have been so good.

 

[Big Boss]

The problem is that the 6 Gen Camaro is too surgical and sterile. It's an engineering feat no doubt. The chassis is more advanced than the Mustang and Challenger. It is, just face it. HOWEVER, it does lack character. It's only a joy to drive when you're flogging it.

I think the best way I can put it is like this. Bare with me. I feel like the car is apologizing for its faults it had from the previous gen. Like a thick girl with a fun personality who got fit but is trying to go back to the guy she wanted when she was plump and now homie doesn't know what to do with her because all she's relying on now is the superficial. The car just isn't embracing anything that gets your emotions going. That's fine if you're a German but sorry Camaro, you're not.

That is a good way of putting it.

 

[Cobra Jet]

This was a sad thing to watch, too. I think it was an excellent engine that was suddenly a bastard step-child. I miss that startup sound in the mornings...not that sound is everything, but the 2.3 just can't match it.

Slap a Flowmaster Outlaw catback on an EB and it’s going to wake it up in the “sound” department. It gives it a deeper rumbly tone, not the raspy mosquito-esque fart-pipe sound that some turbo enthusiasts (insert all brands of turbo cars here) love... I bought the FM catback for my prior 2016 after hearing it in person and others have attested to it in the EB forum as well IF that is a sound that someone is looking for in a 2.3 S550. I don’t have it installed yet, but it’s going on in the future.

The 84-86 SVO’s sounded great with the same cat-back for those who owned or drove those Mustangs back in the 80/90’s.

Now onto the subject at hand...

What many folks are neglecting to see when buying a new S550 is this:
If you buy an EB or GT - the entire platform is exactly the same SANS the ENGINE. Everything being offered today by Ford AND the aftermarket is totally compatible and swappable between BOTH platforms. You name it, it can be done to EITHER platform.

Ford did it right by offering the Performance Package on both the GT and EB - and another thing folks don’t realize is that if buying the EB PP - you’re getting MORE CAR for the $$$$, better bang for the buck. If you take it one step further and get the EB Premium W/PP, then you’re really on par with a loaded GT, SANS the ENGINE for still FAR LESS. Everything a GT comes equipped with in today’s Mustang can be equipped the same on an EB.... SANS the ENGINE.

I could have bought a new 2016 GT when I bought my prior 2016 EB Prem w/PP.... and when that car was bought back through Ford’s RAV process, again, I could have selected a GT over another EB Prem w/PP... I didn’t because I got a Mustang that has ALL of the same shit on it as a GT, can be modified the same as a GT, handles and performs just like a GT, has the same interior package options as a GT.....for thousands LESS than a GT.

Let’s also put this into perspective, buying an EB PP also saves the consumer money here:
Insurance - (full coverage is what most need or select
Tires - in stock PP form, an EB comes squared where a GT does not, therefore stock tires cannot be rotated on a GT
Fuel - been many posts on this site with MPG comparisons and consumption for both GT and EB
Oil changes - if relying on Dealers or shops - the GT takes far more oil than the EB.

I’m in no way bashing the GT at all..... I also get the whole GT sounds better and it’s a V8....

My 2018 EB marks the 20th Mustang I’ve owned to date, including my 94 Cobra - out of all I’ve owned, only 4 have been 2.3’s (2 SVO’s and now 2 EB’s). The V8 arguments and trash talk on this site is really absurd and those who trash other S550’s for the mere fact of an ENGINE choice, your V8 Mustang is no different at all from an EB or V6.

The funny thing is - most who are new to the Mustang world and want to toot their V8 horns would be shocked to know that the FIRST Mustang was not built with a V8, it was a 4-popper. ALL Mustangs today wouldn’t exist if it were not for that Mustang prototype that put us where we are as an Enthusiast Community with an affinity for the Mustang.

Ford has it right by continuing to improve the Mustang, regardless of WHAT drivetrain it has, because without the continued Engineering, development, design, new ideas, and possibility of a future electric motor powered Mustang - the very car we drive and modify could have faced extinction like so many other performance cars that are gone today.

Unfortunately, the world as a whole is migrating away from manual transmissions and large gas powered engines - sure they’re never going to be totally eliminated, but from a Corporate Business perspective in the automotive world, these manufacturers can satisfy future buyers with smaller displacement engines with turbos OR with an “SUV” all the while still having to maintain ever changing stricter safety and EPA standards being pushed upon them by Governments.

IMO, GM doesn’t have a place in the auto community, they would have been GONE if it were not for the financial handout and prop up from the US Government (did they ever repay it ALL)? The Camaro has been trying to play catch up with the Ford Mustang since it’s inception and always takes the back seat.... oh yea, that’s right, the Camaro WAS EXTINCT at one point.... where the Mustang has always been galloping steadily ahead with NO production interruptions ever.

 

[BrettT]

I like the Camaro looks and performance but I can't fit in it and you can't see outta it. I like all the new muscle cars. I missed the 60's and had to grow up in the 70's/80's with huge shitty slow cars with weak horsepower. These new era muscle cars are a gift from God IMHO. I think it's cool as shit seeing Challengers, Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes everywhere. Too bad Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Mercury etc aren't around anymore. Would be awesome to have a modern Firebird, GTO, 442 or Cougar on the road.

Yep, my first car was a brand new '77 Camaro 305 CID, 145 BHP! Pretty sad for a 5 litre V8

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