Meth Injected and Whipple Charged

[esacteksab]

The most recent logs are this summer. For some reason I don't find IAT1 and IAT2 on the available PIDs, but do see IAT on the logs as being around 86 at the beginning of a run and 91 at the end. Cylinder temps around 200-212 (maybe 220 if I'm on it over and over) depending on how hard I'm driving it. I do have some logs with the IAT around 60-70 with similar knock. The Procharger intercooler is pretty good at doing it's job.

What was ambient? And are you taking IAT from the MAF or do you have VMP's harness (maybe this isn't even a thing on non-PD cars)?

Sponsored

 

[Bartly]

What was ambient? And are you taking IAT from the MAF or do you have VMP's harness (maybe this isn't even a thing on non-PD cars)?

IAT is coming of the log via the Ngauge, not how it measures it. The display on the dash shows similar values. Ambient was probably 5-10 degrees less than what IAT measures. I don't have a harness, never heard of that before.

 

[Roh92cp]

IAT is coming of the log via the Ngauge, not how it measures it. The display on the dash shows similar values. Ambient was probably 5-10 degrees less than what IAT measures. I don't have a harness, never heard of that before.

Unless you have a dedicated sensor and system to work with it you don't have accurate IAT 2 post blower temps, even with the VMP harness. Yes I know that our SC systems come there own IAT2 installed in the manifold and yes the PCM and calibration use tha data however none of them have a PID assigned for that data to be displayed in units on a gauge. The gauges that read from the OBD port like NGauge and SCT will have a AIT2 reading but it's not accurate and is just extrapilated from data from other sensors. I've be thoroughly tested this with a dedicated zeitronix ZT-2 system with its own IAT2 sensor installed on the pass side manifold and reads out on the NGauge. The data from the ZT-2 and the data from the PCM extrapilated are 15 degrees different and the reaction time is way off.

 

[esacteksab]

Unless you have a dedicated sensor and system to work with it you don't have accurate IAT 2 post blower temps, even with the VMP harness. Yes I know that our SC systems come there own IAT2 installed in the manifold and yes the PCM and calibration use tha data however none of them have a PID assigned for that data to be displayed in units on a gauge. The gauges that read from the OBD port like NGauge and SCT will have a AIT2 reading but it's not accurate and is just extrapilated from data from other sensors. I've be thoroughly tested this with a dedicated zeitronix ZT-2 system with its own IAT2 sensor installed on the pass side manifold and reads out on the NGauge. The data from the ZT-2 and the data from the PCM extrapilated are 15 degrees different and the reaction time is way off.

I still need to hook up my ZT-2. Are you using the port behind/under the drive shaft on the passenger side?

 

[Roh92cp]

Yes but you will need to use the AEM 1/8" NPT sensor to fit in to the Whipple manifold. I talked with Zeitronix tech on this and verified the AEM impedance scale is the same as the ZT IAT sensor so it's compatible.

http://www.wiringspecialties.com/aem-iat-ait-intake-air-temperature-sensor-kit-dtm-style-plug/

 

[TooSoonJunior]

You can just tap into the sensor supplied and installed by Whipple, and log it as its own 0-5v sensor. Its a standard GT500 sensor, the scaling of the voltage to degrees temp is readily available. No real need to install a second IAT sensor.

 

[mustang1]

The most recent logs from this summer. For some reason I don't find IAT1 and IAT2 on the available PIDs, but do see IAT on the logs as being around 86 at the beginning of a run and 91 at the end. Cylinder temps around 200-212 (maybe 220 if I'm on it over and over) depending on how hard I'm driving it. I do have some logs with the IAT around 60-70 with similar knock. The Procharger intercooler is pretty good at doing it's job.

Is your tune for 91 octane? Procharger advertises "300+ HP gain with P-1SC-1 complete system on 10 psi, quality pump gas." Which probably means quality 93 octane. And if the IAT2 sensor isn't very fast and accurate?

 

[V8Venom]

So as my buddy [MENTION=19816]Highvoltage16[/MENTION] said so far my car is not running even close to lean. My Lambda is consistently in the 70's and low 80's at WOT. The logs have varied depending on where I am doing my pulls. On back to back pulls I saw -3.8 knock and the following pull was +1 and then down to -0.5 as I got higher in the RPM range. The Snow gauge is very accurate in comparison to my boost gauge. It usually has me at 10-11 psi at WOT. I currently have the meth starting at 3 psi and going in full at 7 psi. Since I have had the Whipple and good tires on this car I can go WOT in 2nd gear and have no traction issues. I did three 2nd gear pulls with the meth coming in full at 6 psi and I could not get traction at all. I then put it back to 7psi and went WOT and got traction no problem. So obviously I was making more power.

I plan on doing 3 highway pulls tonight when there's no traffic so I can hopefully go through 2 or 3 gears as so far I have only been able to log in just 2nd or 3rd gear due to the wonderful traffic in Southern California. The car is also hitting the dyno on Sunday, possibly with the 3.5" pulley on if the results from these next few days go well.

 

[ahl395]

So as my buddy [MENTION=19816]Highvoltage16[/MENTION] said so far my car is not running even close to lean. My Lambda is consistently in the 70's and low 80's at WOT. The logs have varied depending on where I am doing my pulls. On back to back pulls I saw -3.8 knock and the following pull was +1 and then down to -0.5 as I got higher in the RPM range. The Snow gauge is very accurate in comparison to my boost gauge. It usually has me at 10-11 psi at WOT. I currently have the meth starting at 3 psi and going in full at 7 psi. Since I have had the Whipple and good tires on this car I can go WOT in 2nd gear and have no traction issues. I did three 2nd gear pulls with the meth coming in full at 6 psi and I could not get traction at all. I then put it back to 7psi and went WOT and got traction no problem. So obviously I was making more power.

I plan on doing 3 highway pulls tonight when there's no traffic so I can hopefully go through 2 or 3 gears as so far I have only been able to log in just 2nd or 3rd gear due to the wonderful traffic in Southern California. The car is also hitting the dyno on Sunday, possibly with the 3.5" pulley on if the results from these next few days go well.

Awesome results! Looking forward to hearing more

 

[V8Venom]

Just finished my logs...I think it's quite possible I still have some false knock going on. I found the AC line bracket hitting my headers the other day so we shaved that, now I have to check my exhaust and see if the bolts are hitting the chassy or the exhaust might be hitting the cross member. I did two 3rd into 4th gear logs and the car was pulling like a freight train, especially when it shifted into 4th. I was actually kinda scared. However, the logs did not look as good.

Log 1 showed +4.94 knock at 3900 RPMs, and only dropped to +4.24 knock when it shifted at 7800...not good I know...but weirdly as soon as it shifted it went to 0 knock at 7838 RPM, and as it shifts down to 6000 RPM still at 0, then right to negative ultimately sitting at -3.99 knock for a few thousand RPM's. Will seems to think its audible knock, which means I still have some false knock going on. Hopefully it is false and I can find the culprit. Until then the frustration and logging continues.

 

[v8ter]

Just finished my logs...I think it's quite possible I still have some false knock going on. I found the AC line bracket hitting my headers the other day so we shaved that, now I have to check my exhaust and see if the bolts are hitting the chassy or the exhaust might be hitting the cross member. I did two 3rd into 4th gear logs and the car was pulling like a freight train, especially when it shifted into 4th. I was actually kinda scared. However, the logs did not look as good.

Log 1 showed +4.94 knock at 3900 RPMs, and only dropped to +4.24 knock when it shifted at 7800...not good I know...but weirdly as soon as it shifted it went to 0 knock at 7838 RPM, and as it shifts down to 6000 RPM still at 0, then right to negative ultimately sitting at -3.99 knock for a few thousand RPM's. Will seems to think its audible knock, which means I still have some false knock going on. Hopefully it is false and I can find the culprit. Until then the frustration and logging continues.

Did you find your knock issues culprit already? Have you done more testing yet on the meth kit?

 

[Obsol3te]

In for results of this nasty meth habit.
For the guys running it daily, obviously you're not going WOT everywhere.
What do you usually get out of a drum of VP meth before needing more?
Cooler intake charge temps are always a good thing

 

[V8Venom]

Did you find your knock issues culprit already? Have you done more testing yet on the meth kit?

In for results of this nasty meth habit.
For the guys running it daily, obviously you're not going WOT everywhere.
What do you usually get out of a drum of VP meth before needing more?
Cooler intake charge temps are always a good thing

So the answer to this question is a yes and no. Car went on the dyno when the issue wasn't fixed to see what it was doing. It was STARVING for timing and still hitting positive knock. So we've been at it since then trying to dial the tune in. I work a lot so I only get 1-2 days a week to work on it if that. The positive thing about the bad dyno numbers was that the car made 15 more hp each pull. Since it was a dyno event they were doing quick pulls, a little too quick for my liking as he literally did them back to back to back with about 5 seconds between pulls. No bueno for the car and they had tiny shop fans so imagine all the heat that was sitting on the exchanger. Regardless the car was still not where it should be. Recent data logging I've got the car just about where it needs to be with -4 knock at WOT in 2nd gear. 3rd gear is still iffy. The car is going to Whipple in a month for the Gen 3 install and to get the tune locked in.

As far as how much Meth I use, I still have my entire drum as I only used it to do the initial fill up. Since then I have been using the boost juice and have only gone through two gallons. As I said I do not drive often but I think 1 gallon should get you 2-3 fill ups.

 

[TooSoonJunior]

As I pointed out earlier, stating that your lambda values in your logs are not changing pre and post install of the meth kit is not a good thing. I have tuned many 93 octane + straight methanol injection setups. you do NOT want to let your PCM pull back fuel once you start spraying, if you do the math of the "sum of the parts" of your fueling, you will find by letting the PCM pull fuel, the 93 octane part of your fuel, you are negating a good chunk of the benefit of the methanol injection.

There is almost NO difference in power potential, knock resistance, for methanol between about 0.65 to 0.75 lambda. Methanol cools cylinder temps even better than gasoline and e85, so running MORE methanol and giving up a tiny bit of power by running say a 0.70 lambda is a much better tune and will give much of the same benefits as a e85 setup if enough meth is run. There is a significant drop off in cooling ability and knock resistance going leaner than 0.75.

Lets work through a sum of the parts example. Setup is a 72lb injector whipple, with a single 12gph nozzle.

Injector duty cycles I typically see are mid 70's, so lets use 75% for this calculation

Meth duty cycle of the pump is very close to 100% unless you mess with the pump, so we will use 100%.

8 injectors, 72lb per hour each, converts to 12.24gph each, running at 75% duty cycle is a total of 73.44gph of 93 octane fuel to the engine.

A single 12gph meth nozzle is just that, 12gph of methanol fuel being delivered to the engine.

So based on 85.44gph of total fuel being delivered to the engine, that is 14% methanol and 86% 93 octane. You can now do math on octane, lambda, etc on that mix.

14% of 0.70 lambda (where I tune meth) and 86% of 0.80 lambda fuels means you should be targeting a lambda of 0.78.

Now if the tune is left alone, and commands 0.80 and sees 0.78 on the widebands, it will pull 2.5% of 93 octane out to move things back to commanded of 0.80. Now you are running a 93 octane lambda of 0.82 and methanol lambda of 0.70. That 0.82 is too lean for gasoline, and you are starting to negate some of the benefits of the methanol. Instead of having all the extra octane and cooling to run more timing, you are using some of the benefit just to suppress some of pre-ignition of running too lean of a gasoline lambda.

The issue becomes much more dramatic the more methanol you spray. I used to run dual 12gph nozzles on my last whipple setup, which was around 20% of my total fuel. For a 3-500ml single nozzle, this is probably a non issue, and especially if just being used as a bandaid for shitting 91 octane fuel. But for heavier users, I still recommend making your tune a flex fuel tune so that when it sees fuel trims go active it adjusts the stoich value in the tune and doesn't try to pull fuel out, and adding some safety items should the meth fail.

Easiest and best I have always used is the AEM flow gauge, which will record 10-15 flow sessions so it has a baseline of what your system flows, if it sees flow drop below the pre-recorded flow rates, it has 12v and ground triggers that can be used for any device. I plumb a on/off solenoid into the bypass vacuum line on the blower, and the ground for the solenoid is the trigger from the AEM gauge. If the meth flow rate drops, the solenoid goes to open position and all boost holding the bypass valve on the blower closed is let off, and you will loose all boost.

 

[V8Venom]

As I pointed out earlier, stating that your lambda values in your logs are not changing pre and post install of the meth kit is not a good thing. I have tuned many 93 octane + straight methanol injection setups. you do NOT want to let your PCM pull back fuel once you start spraying, if you do the math of the "sum of the parts" of your fueling, you will find by letting the PCM pull fuel, the 93 octane part of your fuel, you are negating a good chunk of the benefit of the methanol injection.

There is almost NO difference in power potential, knock resistance, for methanol between about 0.65 to 0.75 lambda. Methanol cools cylinder temps even better than gasoline and e85, so running MORE methanol and giving up a tiny bit of power by running say a 0.70 lambda is a much better tune and will give much of the same benefits as a e85 setup if enough meth is run. There is a significant drop off in cooling ability and knock resistance going leaner than 0.75.

Lets work through a sum of the parts example. Setup is a 72lb injector whipple, with a single 12gph nozzle.

Injector duty cycles I typically see are mid 70's, so lets use 75% for this calculation

Meth duty cycle of the pump is very close to 100% unless you mess with the pump, so we will use 100%.

8 injectors, 72lb per hour each, converts to 12.24gph each, running at 75% duty cycle is a total of 73.44gph of 93 octane fuel to the engine.

A single 12gph meth nozzle is just that, 12gph of methanol fuel being delivered to the engine.

So based on 85.44gph of total fuel being delivered to the engine, that is 14% methanol and 86% 93 octane. You can now do math on octane, lambda, etc on that mix.

14% of 0.70 lambda (where I tune meth) and 86% of 0.80 lambda fuels means you should be targeting a lambda of 0.78.

Now if the tune is left alone, and commands 0.80 and sees 0.78 on the widebands, it will pull 2.5% of 93 octane out to move things back to commanded of 0.80. Now you are running a 93 octane lambda of 0.82 and methanol lambda of 0.70. That 0.82 is too lean for gasoline, and you are starting to negate some of the benefits of the methanol. Instead of having all the extra octane and cooling to run more timing, you are using some of the benefit just to suppress some of pre-ignition of running too lean of a gasoline lambda.

The issue becomes much more dramatic the more methanol you spray. I used to run dual 12gph nozzles on my last whipple setup, which was around 20% of my total fuel. For a 3-500ml single nozzle, this is probably a non issue, and especially if just being used as a bandaid for shitting 91 octane fuel. But for heavier users, I still recommend making your tune a flex fuel tune so that when it sees fuel trims go active it adjusts the stoich value in the tune and doesn't try to pull fuel out, and adding some safety items should the meth fail.

Easiest and best I have always used is the AEM flow gauge, which will record 10-15 flow sessions so it has a baseline of what your system flows, if it sees flow drop below the pre-recorded flow rates, it has 12v and ground triggers that can be used for any device. I plumb a on/off solenoid into the bypass vacuum line on the blower, and the ground for the solenoid is the trigger from the AEM gauge. If the meth flow rate drops, the solenoid goes to open position and all boost holding the bypass valve on the blower closed is let off, and you will loose all boost.

I am going to shoot you a PM.

Sponsored