Uh.....Guys?

[choate]

Right!? This forum is pretty funny.

Some interesting folks over here LOL.

Thanks for the kind words... you still have your coyote car and the terminator?

Just the Cobra. Looking to get back into a coyote for a daily. Probably a 15-17. I miss it

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[choate]

I’ll keep the cobra tho!!!! Drive a fusion daily now

 

[Condor1970]

I have a tickless RHD car. Went out to check last night if our RHD cars were fitted with a tensioner from the factory. I did not see one but found out something else. That there is not enough clearance between bonnet and engine cover for a pair of spectacles.

Doh!!! Oh man, that just sucks. From someone who goes through readers like disposable razor blades, I feel for you.

 

[bootlegger]

Right!? This forum is pretty funny.

Some interesting folks over here LOL.

Thanks for the kind words... you still have your coyote car and the terminator?

Yeah, interesting folks indeed. Some of us have actually worked in engine development too. Balance on the main bearings, including proper tension, has been known to be crucial for bearing life. https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/entry/the_impact_on_bearing_life_of_overtensioned_belts
If the load on the crank is off balance, it could easily throw off tolerance by microns, which is significant in a modern engine with tight clearances. You also have to remember that as a moving part of the engine, it isn't actually fastened down at all. It is a rotating shaft that only has bearings as guides, and other moving parts are effected by any slight angular momentum change.

The chances of the ticks and rattles being simply the A/C compressor is highly unlikely, given the suggested repairs by Ford Corporate. Out of all the fixes people have posted online, no one has mentioned anything about replacing the compressor and belt. To answer the question some may have as to why this 11-14 TSB hasn't been released for the 18, I would say there are multiple reasons. It likely reduces power slightly, which may be a concern for maintaining SAE ratings. They always have to test and validate new components, to make sure they don't cause other damage. This process takes months at a minimum. Or it simply may not fix the main issue in the engines Ford has tested. Hard to tell. What I do know, is that there is no reason to be a dick to the OP for his attempts to fix the issue or his ideas on why this worked for him. I still think piston slap is unlikely, but stranger things have happened in my years of R&D. It would be interesting to see input on this from @BmacIL

 

[bootlegger]

I have a tickless RHD car. Went out to check last night if our RHD cars were fitted with a tensioner from the factory. I did not see one but found out something else. That there is not enough clearance between bonnet and engine cover for a pair of spectacles.

It would be interesting to see the differences between the LHD and RHD engine layouts, especially the serpentine belt/pulley layout.

 

[Condor1970]

Yeah, interesting folks indeed. Some of us have actually worked in engine development too. Balance on the main bearings, including proper tension, has been known to be crucial for bearing life. https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/entry/the_impact_on_bearing_life_of_overtensioned_belts
If the load on the crank is off balance, it could easily throw off tolerance by microns, which is significant in a modern engine with tight clearances. You also have to remember that as a moving part of the engine, it isn't actually fastened down at all. It is a rotating shaft that only has bearings as guides, and other moving parts are effected by any slight angular momentum change.

The chances of the ticks and rattles being simply the A/C compressor is highly unlikely, given the suggested repairs by Ford Corporate. Out of all the fixes people have posted online, no one has mentioned anything about replacing the compressor and belt. To answer the question some may have as to why this 11-14 TSB hasn't been released for the 18, I would say there are multiple reasons. It likely reduces power slightly, which may be a concern for maintaining SAE ratings. They always have to test and validate new components, to make sure they don't cause other damage. This process takes months at a minimum. Or it simply may not fix the main issue in the engines Ford has tested. Hard to tell. What I do know, is that there is no reason to be a dick to the OP for his attempts to fix the issue or his ideas on why this worked for him. I still think piston slap is unlikely, but stranger things have happened in my years of R&D. It would be interesting to see input on this from @BmacIL

Is it your belief that damage may occur by adding a tension arm? I know the F-150 has an A/C tension arm. I just don't see how that could be. Although I believe the F-150 V8 still has quite a few differences. Maybe that's the reasoning.

 

[bootlegger]

Is it your thought, that I may cause damage by adding a tension arm? I know the F-150 has an A/C tension arm. Although I believe the F-150 V8 still has quite a few differences. Maybe that's the reasoning. I have no idea.

It's hard to tell. I would have to see the layout of the 11-14 compared to ours to see how everything is distributed. However, I would have to ask what causes more damage, adding a tensioner pulley and slightly changing the balance, or the lack of balance/increase of vibration that could be the cause of rattle in the stock layout.

 

[Condor1970]

It's hard to tell. I would have to see the layout of the 11-14 compared to ours to see how everything is distributed. However, I would have to ask what causes more damage, adding a tensioner pulley and slightly changing the balance, or the lack of balance/increase of vibration that could be the cause of rattle in the stock layout.

Looking at several pics, the timing cover, and all auxiliary component layout appears to be identical. It's essentially the same engine/timing cover, with exception to the 2018 having the PTWA cylinder and DI upgrade. Whether or not the measurements, and distances between centers of each component is identical, I have no idea. But, it does "appear" to be identical.

 

[Kirgiz]

What really made a noticeable difference is adding a tension arm to the A/C compressor to help even out the tension placed on the crankshaft. That's the only explanation after knowing this noise is INTERNAL to the engine, and not from an auxiliary component.

Stop that nonsense please. Crankshaft is balanced by its own weight. Auxiliary belts have no impact on crankshaft balance.

 

[bootlegger]

Stop that nonsense please. Crankshaft is balanced by its own weight. Auxiliary belts have no impact on crankshaft balance.

I don't think he was stating it would be thrown out of balance. Auxiliary belts do have influence on angular forces on the crank and main bearing.

 

[barron64]

I had the tick start around 3500mi on the original fill oil. It ticked at a cold start or a hot restart, regardless if the A/C was on.

Typical main bearing clearance on an engine is around .002", not sure what exact specs the 5.0 has but I would assume it is around this clearance. So when the engine is running you have an oil film of approx. .001" all around the bearing journal. This film is supportive enough to not allow direct metal to metal contact between the main bearing and the main journal, all the while you have up to 460hp and 7000+ working on the crankshaft. So to have accessory belt tension, cause an issue with crank alignment, i would have to say is unlikely. I doubt my tick is related to the current A/C stretchy belt issue...I hope it is since it is fairly easy to fix and not expensive. However, since the Ceratec additive worked so well, I still believe this is a lifter bleed down issue.

 

[Kirgiz]

I don't think he was stating it would be thrown out of balance. Auxiliary belts do have influence on angular forces on the crank and main bearing.

He said this. "adding a tension arm to the A/C compressor to help even out the tension placed on the crankshaft".
This is absurd. If they have to account for some additional force from some belt they would need to balance crankshaft with that belt and A/C and pumps etc. connected to the crankshaft - which is not true.
When they used to provide vehicles with or without A/C some years ago they did not change crankshaft for the car they put A/C in.

 

[Condor1970]

He said this. "adding a tension arm to the A/C compressor to help even out the tension placed on the crankshaft".
This is absurd. If they have to account for some additional force from some belt they would need to balance crankshaft with that belt and A/C and pumps etc. connected to the crankshaft - which is not true.
When they used to provide vehicles with or without A/C some years ago they did not change crankshaft for the car they put A/C in.

No, sorry. I didn't mean out of rotational balance. What I mean is the direction the belts pull on it radially, seems put the end of the crank in a better position with a different amount of tension to help relieve the severity of the problem that already exists elsewhere internally to the engine. .

If it supposedly does nothing as you say, then why has the noise noticeably changed? I'm definitely not imagining it. And, why did Ford actually issue a TSB as a possible course of action to do just that? The noise they specifically mention in the TSB itself is a low end tick or knock. They obviously tinkered in their lab and found in some cases this has an effect to alleviate the issue. Why else would they do that?

And btw, there are definitely other guys who did this exact thing, and eliminated the random low end tick at idle. Like the guy in link of my first post. I'm not saying it's a definite fix for everyone. Nor is it really a "fix", because the noise itself is piston slap. That potential for slap to occur can't be "eliminated" unless you change the cylinder boring or pistons themselves. But helping put the crankshaft in a certain position does seem to alleviate the severity of the audible noise.

I did nothing else to cause the difference, and honestly can't really offer any other explanation as to why the noise suddenly changed, can you?

 

[Kirgiz]

No, sorry. I didn't mean out of rotational balance. What I mean is the direction the belts pull on it radially, seems put the end of the crank in a better position with a different amount of tension to help relieve the severity of the problem that already exists elsewhere internally to the engine. .

If it supposedly does nothing as you say, then why has the noise noticeably changed? I'm definitely not imagining it. And, why did Ford actually issue a TSB as a possible course of action to do just that? The noise they specifically mention in the TSB itself is a low end tick or knock. They obviously tinkered in their lab and found in some cases this has an effect to alleviate the issue. Why else would they do that?

And btw, there are definitely other guys who did this exact thing, and eliminated the random low end tick at idle. Like the guy in link of my first post. I'm not saying it's a definite fix for everyone. Nor is it really a "fix", because the noise itself is piston slap. That potential for slap to occur can't be "eliminated" unless you change the cylinder boring or pistons themselves. But helping put the crankshaft in a certain position does seem to alleviate the severity of the audible noise.

I did nothing else to cause the difference, and honestly can't really offer any other explanation as to why the noise suddenly changed, can you?

Belt has nothing to do with crankshaft positioning radially or any other way you try to imagine.
The change of noise can be related with A/C or is just a coincidence. Just because you or 2,3 persons add tensioner doesn't mean this is statistically correlated and relevant experiment.
How do you know it is a piston slap?
Why do you pretend you know what to change? Boring of cylinder? Pistons? Oil?
Do you think that pretending you know reasons and solutions (like you do) without having any knowledge is helping somebody or just creates misinformation?

 

[Condor1970]

I had the tick start around 3500mi on the original fill oil. It ticked at a cold start or a hot restart, regardless if the A/C was on.

Typical main bearing clearance on an engine is around .002", not sure what exact specs the 5.0 has but I would assume it is around this clearance. So when the engine is running you have an oil film of approx. .001" all around the bearing journal. This film is supportive enough to not allow direct metal to metal contact between the main bearing and the main journal, all the while you have up to 460hp and 7000+ working on the crankshaft. So to have accessory belt tension, cause an issue with crank alignment, i would have to say is unlikely. I doubt my tick is related to the current A/C stretchy belt issue...I hope it is since it is fairly easy to fix and not expensive. However, since the Ceratec additive worked so well, I still believe this is a lifter bleed down issue.

Belt has nothing to do with crankshaft positioning radially or any other way you try to imagine.
The change of noise can be related with A/C or is just a coincidence. Just because you or 2,3 persons add tensioner doesn't mean this is statistically correlated and relevant experiment.
How do you know it is a piston slap?
Why do you pretend you know what to change? Boring of cylinder? Pistons? Oil?
Do you think that pretending you know reasons and solutions (like you do) without having any knowledge is helping somebody or just creates misinformation?

OK, I'll pull an Al Gore here. Including the fact that it seems to be turning into a "general consensus" among lots of other people, and the fact that several mechanics (Including the lead who is a certified Ford tech) at the Ford dealer told me it definitely sounds like minor piston slap (what do they know, right?) that changes based on block temperature, etc. I would say that's one of the main reasons I'm saying this. Also, toss in the fact that guys who have had some engines replaced have recorded issues of cylinder scoring as a result of this.The tick is definitely internal to the engine, and not coming from the AC compressor or stretchy belt.

Now, 2 or 3 guys "could" be coincidence. I won't argue that. It's always a possibility. But considering no one else has done this yet, and have not reported any results or lack thereof, I'm going to stick with what I did for now. Besides, I'm pretty certain adding a tension arm won't harm the engine, since all the F-150's have it. So, I'll keep it on there, because I like the idea for belt tension, as to me it seems like a better way of engineering something like this. The stretchy belt just seems like a cheap way to save weight and money, imo.

I know what worked for me, so I really think it had an effect based on what I hear audibly. If 20 other guys do this for the exact same problem, and report "no difference in frequency, volume, or tone" at all, then it certainly isn't a "fix", but instead something that is done on rare occasion to try and alleviate symptoms of a bigger internal problem.

What are the chances the noise in fact did change noticeably as a direct result of me adding a tension arm being only a coincidence? That's seems even more slim. Especially when the result was immediate.

You still haven't really answered why Ford issued a TSB as a possible course of action for this very same problem. Isn't it obvious they also had similar results in some cases?

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