To Cat Delete or Not, after blown engine?

Discussion in 'Forced Induction - 5.0L V8 Engine' started by BlueCollarDaily, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    Hey everyone,
    I'm coming off the rather arduous process of having my 19GT A10 engine replaced after only 4k miles ( 2000 boosted miles ) BUT only 38 miles of Stage 2 level power and only the second 0-80 smash it blew on the shift.
    No judgement should be passed on the vendor or its tune I so happened to be logging the first hits and its was dead on commanded AFR, timing was normal no knock...clean then all of a sudden on the second hit after coasting and cooling down it pulled fine again and when it shifted ( tvs so it had full boost on shift) full KR retard I felt it let out and when I come to the next stop misfires which eventually led to the diagnosis of loss of 3,7, and 8 cylinders....
    Where the old engine was one of the worse case copies with the tick starting at 366 miles, tip in and decel rattle along with 2k rattle...everything was checked by Ford and oil analysis done before installation of the supercharger, possibly checked to early to show damage.
    The new engine is a totally different experience, it doesnt sound like a Cummings diesel at drive thru's, it sounds SO much more quite overall that its striking how loud I didnt realize the old one was. It's now at 800 miles with just perfection in terms of zero tick knock rattle and overall quietness....
    It's getting close to time to do my first WOT logs. Having had such bad luck initially followed by what I feel like is a radically better long block ( build date May29th 2019), I really want to give it, it's best chance at it's best life lol.....
    I was apart of the new engine fire from day one logging first start and my first drive no one has been in it...I can conclude the gas was good that was in the car when the first engine failed as logging showed in high load, low rpm scenarios it was constantly allowing timing increases over the stock map NOT retard...like well over....that trend has carried on with each subsequent tank. I have been using the same fuel in boosted cars from same station for 6 years....
    So on the precipice of my first WOTs with what appears to be an exceptional copy of the Gen 3 Coyote, my mind wonders back to what happened to the first. Said Vendor has others at this boost level and spent a 1000hrs nailing a tune to be conservative and carb compliant. We tried to inspect the cats while the engine was out but vision was occluded by screens ect...I certainly detect no restriction but how much is to much flow and heat to expect from stock cats?
    I mean 800 flywheel on 93 at 13 plus psi thru stock cats could THEY have backed up, especially in summer, and increased EGTs, what temps do they melt? Is anyone running near 700 wheel with the full stock exhaust including cats?
    I dont care ANY about being louder, making more power ect I DO care about evacuating heat by having a free flowing exhaust protecting my cylinders....I read horror stories of gasing out with cat deletes...if anyone has any FI input such as much 800hp car has lived 20k with stock exhaust ect please chime in....if someone has any insight into why some people smell no difference and others say they wreak of fuel after driving around?
    I am looking at the MAK Cat Delete possibly in the 3 inch to a 3inch H pipe with the stock mufflers...one thing I like about them is it seems if you buy the extra flange and weld it to the cat you cut off, you can replace the cats back on the car if you get gassed down.....
    I want the quietest care that will flow enough with my system to not back up and hurt my new engine, I dont care about being loud or making more power....or ET....I need a few months to enjoy the car after my trials....

    Thanks
     
  2. stang17

    stang17 Well-Known Member

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    I went through a set of stock cats after a few thousand miles on the stock whipple tune from a few years back. I replaced the stock headers with Kooks catted 1 7/8 (not green) and wiped out those cats after a few hundred miles. I now run catless Kooks headers without issue other than the increased sound. I ended up using a custom H-pipe with a set of MRBP resonators to quiet it down. Sounds great with minimal drone on the highway.
     
  3. OP
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    BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    Thanks that what I was leaning toward I assume its gonna be way to loud and then I'd put resonators in the Hpipe area before its over....
    Thanks for your answer, I know the aftermarket often blow to pieces but did you stock ones melt and back up causing your any engine troubles? Did it gas you out inside the car catless ?
    Thanks for any replies...
     
  4. Stephen@lethal

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    I wouldn't say the cats is what caused your issue, its hard to say honestly what caused your issue, it could have just be a strength integrity in the pistons that was beyond your control unfortunately. However removing the cats is always a good idea on a boosted car because like stated it is a restriction that will let the engine breath. There are a few options that'll work for what you looking at doing with stock mufflers. If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a message or hit us up at Lethalperformance.com
     
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    BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    Thanks I'm certainly not trying to place blame at all just trying to eliminate variables....I don't care about gaining power however it would also be insanity to pulley back up to stage 1 boost levels after spending 5k in parts and 1k on install to go stage 2 and then just literally go back to stage 1 boost levels....that's hard to swallow hehe not even counting a new engine on top of that. I plan to use some octane booster for overhead on my first WOTs to see.....its a little desperate I admit but the engine is SO much nicer running than my first I really want to protect it as best as I can....thanks


    Thanks
     
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    BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have cat temps I should watch out for I assume there is some kind of cat over temp protection? Just seems like such a variable to be playing with
     
  7. lxh89

    lxh89 Well-Known Member

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    Stage 2 Gen 3 Whipple, 3.625" pulley, whipple tune with factory stock exhaust from headers to tailpipes. No issues after over 30,000 miles and car runs [email protected] consistently at the track.

    PD blowers are more sensitive to intake restrictions than exhaust restrictions -- even with cats -- for making power. The factory cats will last a lot longer than aftermarket. If you're going to change the exhaust, don't get cats with the blower - they will fail. Seen so many posts on here about aftermarket cat failures.

    Tony
     
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  8. Woopaloop

    Woopaloop Well-Known Member

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    I'm having those same issues you had on the initial motor with my current one, it sounds like it's about to go. I have a warranty from the vendor and I'm thinking about just leveling with them and coming to some agreement about replacing the shortblock before the thing blows.

    The tune is fine, gas is extremely good I feel like a lot of these motors just came out bad from the factory.

    Do you have the stock ford longblock or did you get a built one?

    From who did you get it if you had one built?
     
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    BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    Boom exactly what I was looking for, how much boost was that? Yea I keep seeing the aftermarket coming to pieces and kooks not standing behind the greens on a current channel....
    I care zero about making more power or being louder...I love being kinda stealthy.....you say 30k miles so I am gonna assume 11 to 1 gen 2 vs 12 to 1 gen 3...thanks for the post and when I do go to the track this fall I'd be perfectly happy with upper 10s on a drag pack!!!!
    Thanks
     
  10. OP
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    BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    First yes I agree if you do it NOW you could get out with a short block...mine had metal in my catch cans on each side which saved the blower fyi....so I ended up with a long block....now since it was a claim I had to go with them and they wanted to go with Ford.
    As down as I've been on Ford let me tell you dude a long block is a complete engine including sensors minus intake and water pump hehe I mean down to covers filter and oil ( I believe them to have additive in the oil)...its a complete new engine really....as such it was sealed so I didnt push my luck...
    Now had it been a short block it would have been easy to walk up to the tech bench and replace the oil pump with one that has billet gears in it.....lol....
    Something else I wish I had done is walked in with a stall and slipped it in while the tech was at lunch and sent mine back for core while I was waiting......
    No its stock, now I believe in Karma so I went to great lengths to confirm the engine was good before the install where I didnt transfer fords problem to a 3rd party. Multiple checks, even some out of pocket...and oil analysis....but imho I done then ti early in I should have let the noises develop a bit before I did the diagnostics.....
    Let me tell you something else I think is a good idea....if your gonna get past 650whp...cheaper to send in your A10 to get the clutch upgrade before you burn anything up...and certainly before you burn it up and run the material thru a $1200 stall...I got quoted $1985 for upgrade install including the trip home and that not much more than bench jobs of any modern trans around here......maybe dead of winter I'll recover from all this outlay and do that.....I'm not made that a trans needs clutches to run 9s with durability thats reasonable hehe...the ticks and rattles not so much......
     
  11. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Well-Known Member

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    I lost a motor last summer, broke #7 piston. Roush said it was a bad coil pack. I replaced my cats anyhow. Walker states that the substrate in a catalytic converter can survive temps up to 2000°. Cat temps displayed on my ngauge are inferred. I have seen cat temps up to 1900° datalogging. 900°- 1000° at idle. 1200°-1300° cruising at 75 MPH.
     
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    BlueCollarDaily

    BlueCollarDaily Well-Known Member

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    Great info...
    Yea I didnt think about that it has to be inferred, it's not like there is a thermistor run to it like EGT...so I assume an algorithm between MAF, O2 up and downstream....
    Interesting on the coil pack so the believed it misfired then built up and fired and or gassed the walls down......
    I idle higher than you via my MPVI2 logs, and I've already seen 1600s at part throttle low boost low rpm like up hills ect....
    Thanks for that info....
    So many knowledgeable people here....
     
  13. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Well-Known Member

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    They said not enough spark under boost. Fuel accumulated in the ring lands under boost. When I got out of boost it got spark again and it blew part of the piston crown off.
     
  14. gimmie11s

    gimmie11s Well-Known Member

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    Pics of broken engine parts?

    Im curious what broke first... guessing ring lands/piston.
     
  15. Chainsaw

    Chainsaw Well-Known Member

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    No pics. They asked me if I wanted them. I declined. Yes the ring lands were broken and a piece missing on the top of the piston. On the intake valve side of the piston. It can't happen on the exhaust side under this scenario. I was told the exhaust side of the piston gets too hot for the fuel to accumulate there.
     
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