TDStuart Tuning Adventure

[tdstuart]

As far as I can tell I should adjust as follows:
Stock
EVC: 369
IVC: 239
IVO: 340

Comp Cams
EVC: 364
IVC: 265
IVO: 342

I would like some confirmation as I am not very good at this though

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[WildHorse]

Yes, but why have the incorrect data when I can have the right data? That is what I am saying. Why purposely have the wrong cam data when I can adjust it to be more correct.

because you won't find the "correct" data. No aftermarket coyote cams chop/lope, unless they're specifically made to be locked out.

With VCT, you have to find that right combo of overlap. Bear in mind though, gen3 12:1 cr with require less overlap, so if yer copying those, you may not get the desired results and vica versa.

Increase overlap
Decrease idle timing
Lower idle

or lock out the cams.

 

[tdstuart]

because you won't find the "correct" data. No aftermarket coyote cams chop/lope, unless they're specifically made to be locked out.

With VCT, you have to find that right combo of overlap. Bear in mind though, gen3 12:1 cr with require less overlap, so if yer copying those, you may not get the desired results and vica versa.

Increase overlap
Decrease idle timing
Lower idle

or lock out the cams.

I think you are confused on what we are talking about. We aren't talking at all about chop or ghost cam.

When going from stock cams to aftermarket (at least in this case) intake valve opening, intake valve closing, exhaust valve opening, and exhaust valve closing change.

Ford has parameters for base ivo, ivc, and evc. The base ivo and evc are used to offset the actual base cam timing. So in reality at 0 ivo, 0 evc (talking about the vvt angles you normally log and interact with that is used by mapped points) its actually 0 ivo + the ivo base offset and 0 evc + the evc base offset. @engineermike I think is saying ivc is not used for much but maybe some injector pulsewidth calculations.

The point I am trying to say is since I have aftermarket cams with different ivo, ivc, evo, and evc, it will throw off the (in our example) 0 ivo + ivo base and 0 evc + evc base.

I can manually correct these base values. The point I am trying to make is why not correct them. It might help get the mapped points a little closer even if not a super impactful change. I feel like having them stock is more incorrect than changing them.

 

[Pistol_91]

I personally would correct them if the cam data is correct. You would do it for a GM car when changing the cam i dont see why not on our cars too

 

[tdstuart]

I personally would correct them if the cam data is correct. You would do it for a GM car when changing the cam i dont see why not on our cars too

Even tho it won’t fix the errors it should get the data closer. I just need to make sure I have my numbers right

 

[Pistol_91]

Even tho it won’t fix the errors it should get the data closer. I just need to make sure I have my numbers right

If you aren't sure I wouldn't mess with it. Try to get SD dialed in

 

[tdstuart]

If you aren't sure I wouldn't mess with it. Try to get SD dialed in

Ya I want @markmurfie to check my offset calculations he has looked into this a lot

 

[markmurfie]

Ya I want @markmurfie to check my offset calculations he has looked into this a lot

I can tell you I recall 263 being the duration for both intake and exhasut cams.

Then going through the values in the calibration it came out to 259 for both. I suspected they used seat to seat numbers and took 2* off both sides.

"Yes 259 is the camshaft degrees. The cams are 263 seat to seat for both intake and exhaust, I believe they took 2* from both sides as the ramp rate of the lobe there is minimal. If the exhaust valve opening was in the calibration it would be 470*

340(open)-239(closed)=101= time spent closed (720-202)/2=360-101=259.= time spent open. 101+259=360"

I said that along with a sheet I am attaching a picture of with all the math and it clicked for them in understanding the cam timing events. These base values dont really do much. The calibration only needs to know the VCT phaser ranges and control. Which you did not change with lock outs or limiters. intake still being -20 to 50 and exhaust being 0 to 50.

I would share the sheet but I had to make 8 moving parts on a doughtnut graph, and things seem to get lost in translation if its not opened in office 2016.

I think Mike is right about injector timing. They may also play a minor role in torque loss calculations, but nothing significant. You are better off tuning your torque tables, or tuning your speed density.
If you really want me to I will review the info you posted and let you know if I think its correct or not, I just dont know if it will have any significant effect on tuning your car.

 

[tdstuart]

I think Mike is right about injector timing. They may also play a minor role in torque loss calculations, but nothing significant. You are better off tuning your torque tables, or tuning your speed density.
If you really want me to I will review the info you posted and let you know if I think its correct or not, I just dont know if it will have any significant effect on tuning your car.

If you have the time it would be great. I also don’t think it will do much but maybe it will help with the rest of the tuning process.

Speaking of the rest of the tuning process. What should I do first? Tuning the torque calculations has been thrown out aswell as speed density.

Should I even bother doing these on stock cai stock injectors or should I finish dialing in the stock maf then switch to lu47 injectors and find the right data then put the PMAS on and dial in the maf data for that then do torque and speed density? I would hate to dial in all the tables then change injectors and cai and have it thrown off.

 

[markmurfie]

If you have the time it would be great. I also don’t think it will do much but maybe it will help with the rest of the tuning process.

Speaking of the rest of the tuning process. What should I do first? Tuning the torque calculations has been thrown out aswell as speed density.

Should I even bother doing these on stock cai stock injectors or should I finish dialing in the stock maf then switch to lu47 injectors and find the right data then put the PMAS on and dial in the maf data for that then do torque and speed density? I would hate to dial in all the tables then change injectors and cai and have it thrown off.

I would start with the torque calculation tables.

I think the PMAS MAF transfer is solid.
I think the injector data for the LU47's from the roush file you used are solid.
You can dial torque and SD in on the stock stuff to eliminate any doubt you have in those two dat a sets. then plug them in later and see how "off" they are, which I am guessing isnt a whole lot.


I reworked the sheet for a duration of 271 on both intake and exhaust as thats what the specs you posted stated for seat to seat. when you command IVO and EVC to 360 or TDC you can see how much over lap it actually still has.

I corrected the base values at the top of the sheet filled in yellow.

And here is your base overlap at 271 duration.
It goes from a base of 29 to 41.

Then if you want to go absolutly nuts and full overlap.

In summary this is what I got.
Comp Cams
EVC: 375
IVC: 245
IVO: 334

If you want to advance these 2* go ahead, I just dont know if thats just .050 as with everything else in those specs or applies from seat to seat as well.

EVC: 373
IVC: 243
IVO: 332

 

[tdstuart]

In summary this is what I got.
Comp Cams
EVC: 375
IVC: 245
IVO: 334

If you want to advance these 2* go ahead, I just dont know if thats .050 as with everything else in those specs or applies from seat to seat as well.

Interesting how we are so far off. I thought at least one of mine would match yours haha. Ill have to look through everything you posted tomorrow and follow your process when I'm not so tired.

 

[tdstuart]

I would start with the torque calculation tables.

I think the PMAS MAF transfer is solid.
I think the injector data for the LU47's from the roush file you used are solid.
You can dial torque and SD in on the stock stuff to eliminate any doubt you have in those two dat a sets. then plug them in later and see how "off" they are, which I am guessing isnt a whole lot.

How do I dial in torque tables? The coyote cookbook shows how but you have to have lots of dyno time. Do I do torque tables and then SD?

 

[markmurfie]

How do I dial in torque tables? The coyote cookbook shows how but you have to have lots of dyno time. Do I do torque tables and then SD?

Heres a few observations from your MP13 cam lope log. Some basic observations you may not already be aware of: Schedule and Indicated torque report the same torque value. You can also see desired torque is kept in sync with engine brake torque, as much as possible.(This keeps your foot and the engines output in sync via a feedback loop) Then finally Desired torque and ETC torque are suppose to agree, but yours, at times, do not. you have desired torque and engine load error.

Red arrows:
Im tring to point out throttle at idle is controlled completely by indicated torque, not desired,ETC, or engine brake torque. you see the spike in throttle coorelates with the spike in indicated torque.

I suggest starting here to tune your idle torque. I was tring to explain this to Mike, but he kept pushing that torque loss went into this. These values are in the torque calculation tables as direct look up values. The raw torque to load/ load to torque values.

Orange arrows:
ETC torque(MAF to load to torque) controls the indicated value, as long as the ECU is happy with it. No limits or other problems it allows it.

Blue arrows:
ETC and desired torque agree. Schedule/ indicated TQ follow the demanded torque. The throttle even follows. The engine brake torque flat lines. This is where it gets complicated, because all that stuff as described by Mike comes in to play on top of the spark and fuel torque ratios. This looks like a torque limit, not error.

 

[markmurfie]

If you are really observant, you would also see why I think theres something wrong with your throttle body. Its position shouldnt be so noisey looking, and be smooth. MAF sensors can cause this, but your MAF signal is clean.

 

[Pistol_91]

I'm confused murf. Don't you usually do SD before torque?

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