Staggered or Squared Setup?

[Angrey]

?????? What are you talking about ????
The post was about bolt on vs bolt-through spacers

Sorry, disregard

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[mavisky]

I think that's dreamy and rose glassed. The issue you're talking about is primarily for the toe and camber on the front. So maybe you pick up a little extra life out of the original front tires.

In essence, if you don't rotate and you don't do burn outs, the rear wheels in theory will outlast the fronts or need replacing less frequently. Now you're swapping and evening that out, you'll end up replacing all 4 at a higher frequency than just the rears. Perhaps it's not at the same rate as the staggered fronts, but it's probably not as significant as you're claiming. Again, I'm looking for something credible rather than what people think is intuitive or makes sense.

On it's surface, people think that by preventing forest fires they're helping. Briefs well on paper. In reality all you're doing is ensuring that once there is a fire (and over a long enough time line there is, nature actually depends on it) that the fuel has built up to the point that the fire is completely amplified and devastating.

I'm not saying the notion here is counter intuitive but I have yet to see any real teeth behind the idea that for street driving, it makes all that much of a difference to rotate them from front to back.

I never said it was worth the expense of aftermarket wheels and spacers and extended studs, but evening the wear pattern out among the tires will absolutely get you extra life out of the fronts by rotating them. All that was asked for was "is there a benefit for non-track rats" and yes there is. I didn't run a multi-year study of thousands of drivers on a hypothetical scenario here to provide you with "credible data". It's just common sense man.

This is the typical failure pattern on GT350's and GT500's. You can see there is still tons of tire left on the outer edges. If you evenly distribute this wear across the front and rear you'll absolutely extend tire life of the "front" tires. Will this also transfer additional wear to the "rear tires", yes probably so, but at least now you're likely replacing all 4 at the same time as opposed to having mis-matched tires when you only replace the fronts.

 

[GT350Keith]

I never said it was worth the expense of aftermarket wheels and spacers and extended studs, but evening the wear pattern out among the tires will absolutely get you extra life out of the fronts by rotating them. All that was asked for was "is there a benefit for non-track rats" and yes there is. I didn't run a multi-year study of thousands of drivers on a hypothetical scenario here to provide you with "credible data". It's just common sense man.

This is the typical failure pattern on GT350's and GT500's. You can see there is still tons of tire left on the outer edges. If you evenly distribute this wear across the front and rear you'll absolutely extend tire life of the "front" tires. Will this also transfer additional wear to the "rear tires", yes probably so, but at least now you're likely replacing all 4 at the same time as opposed to having mis-matched tires when you only replace the fronts.

So is this wear from too much camber on the street? It seems like from what I've read lots of camber on the track is what you want so you don't wear out the outside of the fronts. Does a person need to adjust the camber and toe if your running on both the track and street?

 

[mavisky]

So is this wear from too much camber on the street? It seems like from what I've read lots of camber on the track is what you want so you don't wear out the outside of the fronts. Does a person need to adjust the camber and toe if your running on both the track and street?

I think it has more to do with the toe settings and caster curves of the GT350 and GT500 front suspension. Additional camber only makes those issues worse.

 

[robvas]

And what is your point ?
Anyone with a modicum of mechanical knowledge will understand that bolt on double the numbers of potential failures points compared to bolt through
What creates a lot of sideways loads for a wheel/hub combination is the grip of the tires on the road in high speed turns. Track tires + track surface + high speed = high lateral G loads
Not what an street/off road tires on street or loose surface can even come close to achieve

can you prove that or?

 

[luc]

can you prove that or?

…. Seriously ???????
Want me to prove that you have double the numbers of studs and bolts ???????

 

[Angrey]

…. Seriously ???????
Want me to prove that you have double the numbers of studs and bolts ???????

Just a suggestion, it helps if you click "quote" so that we all know which of the posts above you're responding to. It also identifies the person so they know. Right now you're shouting responses in a crowd of people and some of us are talking about what to eat for dinner tonight and you're screaming about why lunch yesterday sucks with someone who's left the room.

 

[Angrey]

So is this wear from too much camber on the street? It seems like from what I've read lots of camber on the track is what you want so you don't wear out the outside of the fronts. Does a person need to adjust the camber and toe if your running on both the track and street?

Ideally, this is where having adjustable camber plates comes into play. Not only will they give you more adjustment than the factory generally, but you can have multiple suspension settings for street and track. You can simply mark or document where you want it for the street (say -1.8 degrees) and then go totally wild for the track (out to the max of the adjustment). This will help reduce some of the interior wear and cording early.

But as others have pointed out, it also has to do with the toe settings (which help to make the steering more stable).

Die hard purists will insist that when you change the camber it also alters the toe, but in my limited experience the toe effects are minimal. Others may have a more OCD opinion.

 

[robvas]

…. Seriously ???????
Want me to prove that you have double the numbers of studs and bolts ???????

if you can't tighten a bolt...the spacers should be loctited on anyway.

Track tires + track surface + high speed = high lateral G loads
Not what an street/off road tires on street or loose surface can even come close to achieve

I'm talking about your claim that Jeep/truck loads on the wheel aren't anywhere near a Mustang going around a track

 

[mavisky]

Die hard purists will insist that when you change the camber it also alters the toe, but in my limited experience the toe effects are minimal. Others may have a more OCD opinion.

Camber and toe changes seem to be more drastic in the rear than the front and also affect the handling of the car more. I run a good bit of toe out up front and -3.2 degrees of camber, and backing that down to -2.0 gets me closer to 0 toe, but still remains at tow out.

If I add camber in the rear though it can get sketchy really quickly.

 

[MAGS1]

I think that's dreamy and rose glassed. The issue you're talking about is primarily for the toe and camber on the front. So maybe you pick up a little extra life out of the original front tires.

In essence, if you don't rotate and you don't do burn outs, the rear wheels in theory will outlast the fronts or need replacing less frequently. Now you're swapping and evening that out, you'll end up replacing all 4 at a higher frequency than just the rears. Perhaps it's not at the same rate as the staggered fronts, but it's probably not as significant as you're claiming. Again, I'm looking for something credible rather than what people think is intuitive or makes sense.

On it's surface, people think that by preventing forest fires they're helping. Briefs well on paper. In reality all you're doing is ensuring that once there is a fire (and over a long enough time line there is, nature actually depends on it) that the fuel has built up to the point that the fire is completely amplified and devastating.

I'm not saying the notion here is counter intuitive but I have yet to see any real teeth behind the idea that for street driving, it makes all that much of a difference to rotate them from front to back.

I rotate all the way around when I swap from winter to summer and summer to winter. I put about 3,500 miles on the winter set each season and probably closer to 4k on the summer set per year. I’m on year 4 of my winter tires (between two different Mustangs) and all 4 are wearing evenly. I expect to get the full 6ish years out of them before I need to get new ones. They will time out before they get worn out because I just don’t put a ton of miles on them. Same for the summer set.

Im still on the factory alignment, I am planning to get a better alignment done this summer just to improve handling a little bit because I do like to go on spirited drives.

I don’t know if that’s the best example but it’s what I got. Probably need a test group that full rotates and one that doesn’t, similar alignments and similar driving styles to see if it really makes a noticeable difference. I would also want to run the math to see if changing out 2 tires every 3-4 years instead of all 4 every 6ish years makes sense over the long term. In theory it should be about the same but it would really depend if the tires that aren’t fully rotated are wearing faster than normal. But that’s kinda the whole point of the experiment anyways

 

[Wildwildwest]

Camber and toe changes seem to be more drastic in the rear than the front and also affect the handling of the car more. I run a good bit of toe out up front and -3.2 degrees of camber, and backing that down to -2.0 gets me closer to 0 toe, but still remains at tow out.

If I add camber in the rear though it can get sketchy really quickly.

“Sketchy“, can you be more specific? More camber in rear causes more toe in (assuming you don’t adjust that accordingly), and makes the rear less stable?

 

[mavisky]

Maybe I had the rear backwards then. I just know anytimenive made rear suspension component replacements the cae has been really loose until I get it aligned.

 

[JAJ]

…. Seriously ???????
Want me to prove that you have double the numbers of studs and bolts ???????

I think his point is that with millions of users driving cars, failures of the usual twenty points of failure is vanishingly small. Doubling the number of points of failure to 40 when the failure rate's that close to zero won't change things much. And, if you're really concerned about it, you can get a set of double-bolted spacers from Motorsport-Tech dot com, and they'll make them in steel.

 

[Joe Mac]

I know very little about this at this point. So I can't just bolt on stock rear wheels and 305/35/19 tires on the front without doing all these mods?

I have 305's on all corners no spacers and stock wheels

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