So what happened to STP?

[Grintch]

Just checking the rulebook and was surprised to see that STP had disappeared in the 2019 Solo rules. I don't remember seeing any comments/votes on it going away.

What happened? The heavy promotion of CAM killed it off?

Personally, I think that is a mistake. Open rules are fun at first, but as the class matures, people will figure out that very expensive things are legal and will become nessesary to be competitive.

If only they had rolled the STP allowances into STU, it would not have hurt as much.

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[boardkat]

The SEB didn't listen to what competitors wanted in 2013 (there's an EXTENSIVE thread elsewhere documenting how it could work, and was well supported - think j-rho and his nutso STX camaro build and a strong desire to give pro touring and other cool cars like his a place to play competitively) so CAM spun up in the Indiana region, helped immensely by the leadership of Raleigh and Velma coupled with the strong support from Howard and Doug @ the SCCA head office. Enter the CAM Invitational at Nats in 2014, a whole bunch of interested competitors and sponsors, and CAM begins to take off. STP suddenly appears in 2015, but yet again the SEB failed their constituents and forced upon competitors an unrealistic ruleset that had served imports in the various ST* classes well for over a decade, but did a great disservice to what muscle car owners widely consider typical bolt-on modifications (e.g., 11" wheels/315 tires, long tube headers, coilover conversions, final drive changes, etc). Fast forward another 2 years to 2017 and STP finally shows up with a useful ruleset and...... why run STP when CAM is already well-subscribed, unattached from the SEB and the draconian rulesmakers, with great support from all stakeholders. It's especially telling when the 2017 STP champ (who was a sitting member of the STAC at the time) chose to run CAM @ Nats in 2018 (in STP prep, since he campaigned as an STP car all season - and won - for the Pro Solo Finale) rather than STP. People naturally gravitate towards competition, and the writing was already on the wall at that point. Don't let $$$ dissuade you, some of us are doing more than autox with our cars (Optima) and CAM is the only place for us to land in the SCCA (and modifications to enable stability at 185+ do little to help - and actually hurt, due to added weight in the wrong places - at autox speeds). A well setup and well driven car with limited modifications will still lead the pack due to the limitations that 200tw tires and weight present, as our gen6 STP friend showed on Day 2 when monsoon conditions - and being stuck on the wrong tires - were no longer an issue.

tl;dr if the STP of 2017 existed when it should have in 2014, it would have been a much different story methinks. It surely would have been a lot less expensive for me personally! Day late, buck short.

 

[NightmareMoon]

A well setup and well driven car with limited modifications will still lead the pack due to the limitations that 200tw tires and weight present,

Agreed. I won the Mineral Wells tour without high dollar coilovers or even a tune, on car which was less prepped than some STP builds, yet still wasnt STP legal because of front lowering control arms. Simply out drove my competition on a long 80 second course (bouncing off the rev limiter nearly the entire time)

STP didnt quite allow enough of the changes to the car that I wanted to do to support road course driving. CAM does. Hell, the class PAX numbers are nearly identical.

CAM may get expensive at some point (boardkat seems to be in a rush to take us there , but right now its still a bit soft. Enjoy the open rules while you can.

 

[DickR]

Also, there are a huge number of both current and older Pony cars which already have or "need" modifications which almost any "likely" STP rule set would not allow. CAM's anything goes approach is perfect for them, especially on sites where S550's and other newer cars are too wide/heavy. Plus a huge number of people who like Pony cars really like to buy and install parts and vendors keep coming up with lots of new parts. :-)

 

[Grintch]

Also, there are a huge number of both current and older Pony cars which already have or "need" modifications which almost any "likely" STP rule set would not allow. CAM's anything goes approach is perfect for them, especially on sites where S550's and other newer cars are too wide/heavy. Plus a huge number of people who like Pony cars really like to buy and install parts and vendors keep coming up with lots of new parts. :-)

Some us don't have a $100,000 mod budget. And eventually, the soft PAX and lack of fully prepared cars will go away. And people with mildly modified cars (ST ish) will find they are in the deep end with sharks.

Was there any discussion of STP going away? I don't remember seeing it in any FastTracks or in Sports Car. And while the numbers at Nationals weren't great, they were not terrible either.

Class Drivers
STP 9
AM 9
ASP 10
FSP 11
STH 12
EP 12
EM 12

 

[jpaulson]

I agree with Dennis that the 200TW tires in CAM have done a lot to limit the advantage of cubic dollars. They will only handle so much power. I think Dennis will be the first to admit that he has reached a point of diminishing returns for dollars spent, but it's fun for him. I do think that minimum weights for the newer IRS cars needs to be raised to at least 3500# though. That would prevent some of the stupid money being spent to save weight.

I was sad to see STP go away, the powers that be seemed to be against it from the start based on many of the decisions that were made.

 

[DickR]

Some us don't have a $100,000 mod budget. And eventually, the soft PAX and lack of fully prepared cars will go away. And people with mildly modified cars (ST ish) will find they are in the deep end with sharks.

Was there any discussion of STP going away? I don't remember seeing it in any FastTracks or in Sports Car. And while the numbers at Nationals weren't great, they were not terrible either.

Class Drivers
STP 9
AM 9
ASP 10
FSP 11
STH 12
EP 12
EM 12

I absolutely agree at the "national event" level. Here in NC CAMC is pretty popular with lots of low budget previous generation cars, many of which already had various "no way they would be any version of STP legal" mods (i.e. common pony car and older car stuff). It is nice to see so many people running in CAM locally with cars, including mods, which are well under the cost of many nationally competitive FS used BMW's or even Camaros and Mustangs.

FYI I really don't "like" a Mustang as an autocross car compared to a nimble smaller sports car or even better the CM FF I had for 20 years but as a dual purpose car that is "safe feeling" in traffic full of SUV's, vans, pickup trucks, etc. it is great. So what if it sucks in slaloms and offsets. It LOVES straights..:-)

 

[BmacIL]

I absolutely agree at the "national event" level. Here in NC CAMC is pretty popular with lots of low budget previous generation cars, many of which already had various "no way they would be any version of STP legal" mods (i.e. common pony car and older car stuff). It is nice to see so many people running in CAM locally with cars, including mods, which are well under the cost of many nationally competitive FS used BMW's or even Camaros and Mustangs.

FYI I really don't "like" a Mustang as an autocross car compared to a nimble smaller sports car or even better the CM FF I had for 20 years but as a dual purpose car that is "safe feeling" in traffic full of SUV's, vans, pickup trucks, etc. it is great. So what if it sucks in slaloms and offsets. It LOVES straights..:-)

Well this is kinda why CAMC works. The Mustang is big, heavy, and that partially negates the power and some of the chassis mods allowed compared to the ST classes. STP would work if the tire/wheel sizes alone were realistic to what's required for these cars to work really well at autocross.

 

[SteveW]

I agree with Dennis that the 200TW tires in CAM have done a lot to limit the advantage of cubic dollars. They will only handle so much power. I think Dennis will be the first to admit that he has reached a point of diminishing returns for dollars spent, but it's fun for him. I do think that minimum weights for the newer IRS cars needs to be raised to at least 3500# though. That would prevent some of the stupid money being spent to save weight.

I was sad to see STP go away, the powers that be seemed to be against it from the start based on many of the decisions that were made.

3500# would definitely negate any weight advantage the turbo cars have.

 

[NightmareMoon]

The annoying part is Mustangs and Camaros are pretty common, but we only have strict FS and no rules at all CAMC. A proper STP should be there to fill that gap IMHO.

You’d have to be an idiot to try to run in STU with the current rules, and even with allowances for our heavy cars, theres no way we can compete against a well driven STU prepped AWD STI. Maybe its just the one hot shoe in STU locally that I do t want to run against.

At the minimum they should try to make STU more workable for middle-prepped cars that arent changing suspension control arms or adding blowers

 

[SteveW]

The annoying part is Mustangs and Camaros are pretty common, but we only have strict FS and no rules at all CAMC. A proper STP should be there to fill that gap IMHO.

You’d have to be an idiot to try to run in STU with the current rules, and even with allowances for our heavy cars, theres no way we can compete against a well driven STU prepped AWD STI. Maybe its just the one hot shoe in STU locally that I do t want to run against.

At the minimum they should try to make STU more workable for middle-prepped cars that arent changing suspension control arms or adding blowers

If I could be king for a day I'd look at phasing out SP and create a series of classes beyond ST and closer to SM on 200TW. There's more than pony car folks who like the open rules of CAM and street tires.

 

[Dallas J]

There's more than pony car folks who like the open rules of CAM and street tires.

I have some sort of stake in the game, I 100% want this. The hoosier game of counting runs and worrying about heat cycles is wearing on me. And I dont even have to pay for them, often...

 

[NightmareMoon]

Locally, we run a ‘tire’ PAX class for drivers who would normally be on slicks but who want to run 200TW tires instead. It does draw some of the mod cars.

 

[Grintch]

Locally, we run a ‘tire’ PAX class for drivers who would normally be on slicks but who want to run 200TW tires instead. It does draw some of the mod cars.

Right that seems to be a common local/regional option. And SM, SMF, and SSM on street tires is effectively CAM for imports.

The problem is participation normally falls off significantly as the mod levels go up. So Stock > ST>SP>SM. So with no good ST choice for pony cars, the whole progression is short circuited. But then again the SCCA classing is overly complicated and generally set up for the current car of choice.

 

[Bumzo1]

I ran STP the first year I had my mustang and in my local (Texas) region we had a decent number of participants, maybe 6. The next year I ran STP for the first half of the year but nearly everyone started transferring to CAM, including me. I started doing more road course events and started setting my car up for that instead, which forced me to CAM. By the end of that year there were only 2 STP competitors left and they weren't even competitive. This year in Texas Region, CAM-C is one of the largest classes and we regularly have 15 or more competitors per event and usually the top 10 are within 2s of 1st place. We've got a good mix of S550s, Camaro 1LEs, a Boss 302, etc all with very good drivers to compete against. For me, CAM was the obvious choice because it had all the competition and allowed me to have a dual purpose car.

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