Replaced Voodoo Engine

[jvandy50]

this has been a concern since the first 5 engines popped back in 2016. At hat time the consensus, IIRC, was the OPG as the blame for low-pressure failures.

We even went through how tough cast was vs billet, to ad nauseum I just say.

Seems like we should be able to know that the majority of the reason for failures was, which IMHO, Ford being quiescent about all failures may indicate the major problem may be a simple part (OPG, e.g.) but one that has major cost associated with it to address (OPG, e.g.).

Couldn’t you see the line at the repair shop of Ford issued a TSB for the cast OPG to be replaced by a billet OPG?...

i cannot imagine that clusterfuck tbh, whether i think they should or not...its just not a logical solution

 

[UnhandledException]

I was a former of a E92 M3 with its famous S65 V8 that revved to 8400 rpm. Not FPC but it had its unique ITBs. But anyways, as I m sure you may have heard (if not just google S65 rod bearing), that engine has had the rod bearing problem where between the years of 2012-2015, bimmerpost on average would have 1 thread per week average about engine failures (note: not all threads were new but mostly updates). The issue became so common that a new indy sector was born just to upgrade the rod bearings of these engines ($3000-5000 job depending on the location). With absolutely ZERO acknowledgement from BMW, people even started a class action lawsuit. Nothing happened as nothing will ever happen.

Granted GT350 was produced in far fewer numbers than the E9X M3 (a 6 year production run), the sheer number of rod bearing failures in that forum was incredible.

My point? If there is a design problem, nothing will ever happen. If any of you works for a big multi national company you must know very well how slow these companies move and how its almost impossible to make the kind of changes you guys are expecting. Ford isnt Porsche. Even BMW couldnt do anything. Porsche did but their market is so small, cars are so few, they can. Ford neither has the dealer network nor engineering capacity to address this.

So what can you do about it? Unfortunately besides coming here and venting (and I truly fe bad for you guys) you can just get out of this car and get something else. I will say this though, every single performance car I familiarized myself with had a systematic failure of some sort. Its simply impossible to have a car like this one with unique characteristics built in an assembly line (even Porsche’s silk glove assembly) and not have these problems.

What you are missing is, there is perhaps an engineering team of at the most 5-6 key people in Ford with about 20-22 people among themselves who work on a project like this. The amount of permutations and combinations of what can go wrong in real life can never be discovered during development. You can go for “lessons learned” approach of previous development stories but FPC was a first for them.

Here are some examples:

- 997.1 GT3 Rear main seal
- 997.2 GT3 Coolant pipe leak. Rear diff rebuild
- 991.1 GT3 Blown engines at first due to rods. Lack of lubrication and blown engines again.
- 987.1 GT4 Strut tower failures. Transmission gear 3-4 failures.
- E9X M3 Rod bearing failures. Throttle actuator failures.
- F8X M3 Crank hub key failures. Driveshaft failures.
- F10 M5 Rear diff bolt failures. Injector failures.
- C7 Z06 Cooling issues
- C6 LS7 Engines - valve issues

 

[H6G]

this has been a concern since the first 5 engines popped back in 2016. At hat time the consensus, IIRC, was the OPG as the blame for low-pressure failures.

We even went through how tough cast was vs billet, to ad nauseum I just say.

Seems like we should be able to know that the majority of the reason for failures was, which IMHO, Ford being quiescent about all failures may indicate the major problem may be a simple part (OPG, e.g.) but one that has major cost associated with it to address (OPG, e.g.).

Couldn’t you see the line at the repair shop of Ford issued a TSB for the cast OPG to be replaced by a billet OPG?...

And what are the chances that the replacement engines.... mostly likely had the same type of cast OPG’s.

 

[Demonic]

Here are some examples:

- 997.1 GT3 Rear main seal
- 997.2 GT3 Coolant pipe leak. Rear diff rebuild
- 991.1 GT3 Blown engines at first due to rods. Lack of lubrication and blown engines again.
- 987.1 GT4 Strut tower failures. Transmission gear 3-4 failures.
- E9X M3 Rod bearing failures. Throttle actuator failures.
- F8X M3 Crank hub key failures. Driveshaft failures.
- F10 M5 Rear diff bolt failures. Injector failures.
- C7 Z06 Cooling issues
- C6 LS7 Engines - valve issues

Just to add, there're still the Gen V viper guys dealing with the block casting defects. And as a BMW guy I remember the debacle with the E46 M3 rod bearings too, which were actually recalled eventually. Then there were the valve retainers on the 95 M3's. Those were never recalled, just updated for 2016. I eventually just had my 95 replaced with the 96+ ones. So yeah, the list goes on. It's not new, and it's not just Ford.

 

[MrCincinnati]

.. you don't know if yours is going to be the unlucky one.

I think I'd consider mine to be the lucky one if I make it to 55k and it blows.

But yeah - definitely not keeping this out of warranty unless Ford decides to disclose and resolve definitively.

 

[ThreeFiveO]

Question. If you jump ship and you don't go GM or Mopar, where do you go?

 

[cosmo]

Question. If you jump ship and you don't go GM or Mopar, where do you go?

Some have gone Porsche but I find those somewhat bland. In the sense of yes, they can be incredibly competent on the track/street and have fantastic build quality however the character can be lacking unless you spend well into the 6 figure range.


I know a few of traded their GT350 for an M2 with some exhaust work and found the trade surprisingly easy.



Most I know go to a Vette.



Apart from that? Not much in the way of manuals anymore...

 

[DrumReaper]

And I think you hit the nail on the head. Some bean counter figured that it would be cheaper to replace these engines on a case by case basis as opposed to a major recall. How many track their cars and really push them where this may be a concern? I would say most are cars and coffee garage kept queens. There is nothing wrong with that, however until many miles are put on the clock (or you happen to trigger the catastrophic event - however that may be), you don't know if yours is going to be the unlucky one.


A friend reached out to me who is having this problem and we both agreed that we wont keep ours out of warranty unless we first know the exact nature of the problem and second, that the suspect parts are replaced.

I really don't think anyone should sell their car over this. If the car is in warranty, enjoy it. I have an 8 year extended warranty on my AG R, and I guess I need to buy a warranty on the TY R.

[MENTION=32698]17RubyShelbyGT350[/MENTION] , I wouldn't be hesitant, but just understand the concern and adjust your warranty if you plan to keep the car.

I have a 9 year warranty on my R, and a 3 year commitment to Ford. If it blows prior to the fulfillment of the 3 year commitment I will just likely turn it back in. If it fails in the 9 year period then I get a new engine. If it survives he 9 year period, it gets a billet OPG. I have my plans laid out.

 

[Tomster]

I have a 9 year warranty on my R, and a 3 year commitment to Ford. If it blows prior to the fulfillment of the 3 year commitment I will just likely turn it back in. If it fails in the 9 year period then I get a new engine. If it survives he 9 year period, it gets a billet OPG. I have my plans laid out.

We think alike. I've already ponied up for an 8 yr warranty for HR871. I need to start shopping for HR361.

 

[17RubyShelbyGT350]

The Beat Goes On

I was a former of a E92 M3 with its famous S65 V8 that revved to 8400 rpm. Not FPC but it had its unique ITBs. But anyways, as I m sure you may have heard (if not just google S65 rod bearing), that engine has had the rod bearing problem where between the years of 2012-2015, bimmerpost on average would have 1 thread per week average about engine failures (note: not all threads were new but mostly updates). The issue became so common that a new indy sector was born just to upgrade the rod bearings of these engines ($3000-5000 job depending on the location). With absolutely ZERO acknowledgement from BMW, people even started a class action lawsuit. Nothing happened as nothing will ever happen.

Granted GT350 was produced in far fewer numbers than the E9X M3 (a 6 year production run), the sheer number of rod bearing failures in that forum was incredible.

My point? If there is a design problem, nothing will ever happen. If any of you works for a big multi national company you must know very well how slow these companies move and how its almost impossible to make the kind of changes you guys are expecting. Ford isnt Porsche. Even BMW couldnt do anything. Porsche did but their market is so small, cars are so few, they can. Ford neither has the dealer network nor engineering capacity to address this.

So what can you do about it? Unfortunately besides coming here and venting (and I truly fe bad for you guys) you can just get out of this car and get something else. I will say this though, every single performance car I familiarized myself with had a systematic failure of some sort. Its simply impossible to have a car like this one with unique characteristics built in an assembly line (even Porsche’s silk glove assembly) and not have these problems.

What you are missing is, there is perhaps an engineering team of at the most 5-6 key people in Ford with about 20-22 people among themselves who work on a project like this. The amount of permutations and combinations of what can go wrong in real life can never be discovered during development. You can go for “lessons learned” approach of previous development stories but FPC was a first for them.

Here are some examples:

- 997.1 GT3 Rear main seal
- 997.2 GT3 Coolant pipe leak. Rear diff rebuild
- 991.1 GT3 Blown engines at first due to rods. Lack of lubrication and blown engines again.
- 987.1 GT4 Strut tower failures. Transmission gear 3-4 failures.
- E9X M3 Rod bearing failures. Throttle actuator failures.
- F8X M3 Crank hub key failures. Driveshaft failures.
- F10 M5 Rear diff bolt failures. Injector failures.
- C7 Z06 Cooling issues
- C6 LS7 Engines - valve issues

Hmmm, nice - not so nice list. I previously commented on the C6 LS7 crap, and yes, the C7 Z06 has major cooling issues (at least until '18). Now who is gonna try to defend such an obvious engineering flaw that any talented engineering student could not work through? First, take the C6 ZR1 supercharger and drastically downsize it so it now spins at 22000 RPMs and makes insane heat on the C7 Z06. Oh, and then compound this brilliance by seriously under engineering both airflow management and cooling capacity and then calling it a track weapon. BTW, GM is still in court over this. If it was a track weapon of mass destruction, they must have meant self destruction. Have a lot of friends in that community and the stories are not pleasant.

So GM HAS offered a solution! Its a good news, bad news deal. You see, the new ZR1 has a properly sized supercharger (ala the old C6 ZR1) and massive cooling improvements - available to you for only about $30k over the Z06. Interestingly enough, a well respected Vette tuner came up with the very same resolution (including totally redesign front fascia) before the ZR1 was released.

Now back to Ford. Yep, I heard a lot about the OPG question. No one knows for sure since Ford isn't talking. I have heard (true?) that should you buy a new OPG from Ford Performance and have a Ford Store install it, you will lose your warranty. Is that true? Paradoxically, if it is true, that still does not tell us for sure if there is an OPG problem. And what about the '18 motors - what OPGs are they running?

So I am gonna walk the plank here and disagree with some who tell us we should not have expectations that BMW, GM, Ford, Porsche or whomever must not take corporate responsibility when they sell us their "performance engineered and trackable" corporate crown jewels at premium prices and they crap out either on the street or during a 20 minute duration track school lapping sessions. Notice, I am NOT saying these are or should be considered race cars or suitable for competition without modification when used on race tracks during competitive racing.

Someone here said, well - what are our choices? My response is, as the customers, we need to both be more vocal about throwing more public sunlight on these problems. Sunlight is a strong disinfectant.

What I might do? Answer, kinda depends on what happens to my Shelby. For example, since I know how to fix the C7 Z06 crap engineering through the aftermarket, I can pick up a very lightly used C7 Z06 for 60% of what its original MSRP was (lots of garage queens out there) apply the fix, then go hunt me some $140k ZR1s, Vipers, or damn near anything else out there. Or I could buy a 50k pristine C6 ZR1, spend 10k with Lingenfelter, and go C7 ZR1 hunting.

We all have choices if we have the ballz to make them.

I like my Shelby - if the weaknesses causing these statistically relevant catastrophic failures were known, I could keep it, fix it and be happy. It would be cool if someone who experienced one of these VooDoo failures had the engine professionally dissected so the grand mystery would be revealed. The forum would probably need to offer one of those internet " fund me" accounts to reimburse the owner of that car. Maybe not so crazy, given how some lying and disgraced officials are finding people dumb enough to help pay for their legal fees...

 

[Tomster]

Hmmm, nice - not so nice list. I previously commented on the C6 LS7 crap, and yes, the C7 Z06 has major cooling issues (at least until '18). Now who is gonna try to defend such an obvious engineering flaw that any talented engineering student could not work through? First, take the C6 ZR1 supercharger and drastically downsize it so it now spins at 22000 RPMs and makes insane heat on the C7 Z06. Oh, and then compound this brilliance by seriously under engineering both airflow management and cooling capacity and then calling it a track weapon. BTW, GM is still in court over this. If it was a track weapon of mass destruction, they must have meant self destruction. Have a lot of friends in that community and the stories are not pleasant.

So GM HAS offered a solution! Its a good news, bad news deal. You see, the new ZR1 has a properly sized supercharger (ala the old C6 ZR1) and massive cooling improvements - available to you for only about $30k over the Z06. Interestingly enough, a well respected Vette tuner came up with the very same resolution (including totally redesign front fascia) before the ZR1 was released.

Now back to Ford. Yep, I heard a lot about the OPG question. No one knows for sure since Ford isn't talking. I have heard (true?) that should you buy a new OPG from Ford Performance and have a Ford Store install it, you will lose your warranty. Is that true? Paradoxically, if it is true, that still does not tell us for sure if there is an OPG problem. And what about the '18 motors - what OPGs are they running?

So I am gonna walk the plank here and disagree with some who tell us we should not have expectations that BMW, GM, Ford, Porsche or whomever must not take corporate responsibility when they sell us their "performance engineered and trackable" corporate crown jewels at premium prices and they crap out either on the street or during a 20 minute duration track school lapping sessions. Notice, I am NOT saying these are or should be considered race cars or suitable for competition without modification when used on race tracks during competitive racing.

Someone here said, well - what are our choices? My response is, as the customers, we need to both be more vocal about throwing more public sunlight on these problems. Sunlight is a strong disinfectant.

What I might do? Answer, kinda depends on what happens to my Shelby. For example, since I know how to fix the C7 Z06 crap engineering through the aftermarket, I can pick up a very lightly used C7 Z06 for 60% of what its original MSRP was (lots of garage queens out there) apply the fix, then go hunt me some $140k ZR1s, Vipers, or damn near anything else out there. Or I could buy a 50k pristine C6 ZR1, spend 10k with Lingenfelter, and go C7 ZR1 hunting.

We all have choices if we have the ballz to make them.

I like my Shelby - if the weaknesses causing these statistically relevant catastrophic failures were known, I could keep it, fix it and be happy. It would be cool if someone who experienced one of these VooDoo failures had the engine professionally dissected so the grand mystery would be revealed. The forum would probably need to offer one of those internet " fund me" accounts to reimburse the owner of that car. Maybe not so crazy, given how some lying and disgraced officials are finding people dumb enough to help pay for their legal fees...

Yes to the tune of 20 to 30 thousand dollars. Then it would be one isolated case because ford ain't sharing. I wonder why? May I suggest you just extend your warranty and throw a billet OPG in there when the warranty runs out.

That's my plan. Like I said, I won't own one out of warranty with a powdered metal OPG in there.

 

[17RubyShelbyGT350]

Da Plan

Yes to the tune of 20 to 30 thousand dollars. Then it would be one isolated case because ford ain't sharing. I wonder why? May I suggest you just extend your warranty and throw a billet OPG in there when the warranty runs out.

That's my plan. Like I said, I won't own one out of warranty with a powdered metal OPG in there.

I greatly respect your opinions, and your suggestion is an alternative. On principle, it kinda bothers me that I need to buy additional expensive insurance to cover for any manufacturer's lack of frankness with its customer's over potential flaws in their expensive products.

In the real world, even with my expensive insurance policy, should my engine fail, I will have to take it to a Ford store and depend upon both Ford and their representatives to provide me with a replacement in a relatively timely manner and install that replacement in a manner which restores my car to the level it was before the failure. Not sure how many VooDoo engines will be readily available three years from now?

So far, I had a horrible experience with the dealership I bought my car from in MD, and at best mediocre service (a simple oil change which left major deposits of the old oil over much of the front suspension) from my local dealership. And yes, I raised hell with Ford over the MD dealership experience and they seemed to show interest.

I realize you live near a "good" dealership but many of us may not. And it is troublesome.

But yes, your solution may be the best real world response other than just moving on.

 

[DrumReaper]

I greatly respect your opinions, and your suggestion is an alternative. On principle, it kinda bothers me that I need to buy additional expensive insurance to cover for any manufacturer's lack of frankness with its customer's over potential flaws in their expensive products.

In the real world, even with my expensive insurance policy, should my engine fail, I will have to take it to a Ford store and depend upon both Ford and their representatives to provide me with a replacement in a relatively timely manner and install that replacement in a manner which restores my car to the level it was before the failure. Not sure how many VooDoo engines will be readily available three years from now?

So far, I had a horrible experience with the dealership I bought my car from in MD, and at best mediocre service (a simple oil change which left major deposits of the old oil over much of the front suspension) from my local dealership. And yes, I raised hell with Ford over the MD dealership experience and they seemed to show interest.

I realize you live near a "good" dealership but many of us may not. And it is troublesome.

But yes, your solution may be the best real world response other than just moving on.

My extended warranty was ~$1k. I’m willing to spend that for 9 years of peace of mind.

 

[Tomster]

I greatly respect your opinions, and your suggestion is an alternative. On principle, it kinda bothers me that I need to buy additional expensive insurance to cover for any manufacturer's lack of frankness with its customer's over potential flaws in their expensive products.

In the real world, even with my expensive insurance policy, should my engine fail, I will have to take it to a Ford store and depend upon both Ford and their representatives to provide me with a replacement in a relatively timely manner and install that replacement in a manner which restores my car to the level it was before the failure. Not sure how many VooDoo engines will be readily available three years from now?

So far, I had a horrible experience with the dealership I bought my car from in MD, and at best mediocre service (a simple oil change which left major deposits of the old oil over much of the front suspension) from my local dealership. And yes, I raised hell with Ford over the MD dealership experience and they seemed to show interest.

I realize you live near a "good" dealership but many of us may not. And it is troublesome.

But yes, your solution may be the best real world response other than just moving on.

Yes, I take a lot of that for granted. The guy who would work on my car is a great guy and an excellent mechanic in a world class facility.

I wasn't trying to influence your decision or your views, but simply throwing out alternatives. I'm not ready to throw in the towel but instead have come up with a way to mitigate possible damages.

Any person who has this car has this potential problem. My statement before that I would not own this car outside of warranty holds true. I think by the time my warranty runs out, I believe this whole thing will be figured out and the problematic component(s) identified.

Resale and collectability have been diminished by '18 and '19 model years, so a numbers matching block probably isn't as important as it once was.

So enjoy the car until (that is IF) it ever happens. So many are tracking thier cars and not all of them blow up (FWIW)

 

[rick81721]

I like my Shelby - if the weaknesses causing these statistically relevant catastrophic failures were known, I could keep it..

Curious to your characterization of "statistically relevant". Does anyone have hard numbers?