Race craft/heel toe help

[sotek2345]

How are people practicing heel-toe on the street? I have been trying, but usually I would need to press the brake too hard to do an effective heel-toe (i.e. if engine breaking in 5th is all I need to slow down for an exit ramp and I have traffic behind me, how do I heel-toe without slowing the car too much?). Also - how do you heel-toe on the street without jerking the car with on/off breaks (heel-toe, coast, heel-toe, coast, etc.)?

any help / tips greatly appreciated

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[shogun32]

I personally think heel-toe is overrated. I brake 'hard' for the corner. About 1/2 way to target speed, I select the gear for corner entry and slowly feed the clutch in while still on/fading out of the brakes. If I've taken too long to get the clutch sorted and it's time for throttle, then I press the gas and finish letting out the clutch. I know what the RPM is supposed to be for that corner and the selected gear.

I watched a YT of one guy who was just dying to blow his engine sky-high by down-shifting barely a half second after he touched the brakes (he was already at redline) and kept doing downshifts into VIR T1. I mean he knows he needs 2nd at turn-entry all he had to do was wait till 50m mark.

I'm an advocate for keeping it simple and non-rushed. The human brain is amazingly parallel processor but motor control tends to be closer to single-threaded. Drive like there is a full cup of water on the dash and the goal is not slosh it empty.

For lesser slow-downs and have the headroom I blip the throttle and choose the gear before applying brakes. Focus more on smooth driving and braking far less than your brain is screaming at you. Throttle, brake, clutch should all be smooth motions.

 

[NeverSatisfied]

At the end of the day heel-toe downshifting is essential in my opinion for fastest lap times and a great skill to master.

It’s something that requires practice. The timing of the shifts are as important as the movement. With practice, it does become more automatic and something that requires negligible focus.

It’s just not one of the initial things I think a new driver should be concerned about when learning.

If you can you can pull off downshifts on track without upsetting the car under braking without doing heel-toe in an s550 (no auto blip, etc) more likely you’re leaving some braking potential on the table or you have a substantial brake bias imbalance which allows you to get away with it.

 

[NightmareMoon]

How are people practicing heel-toe on the street? I have been trying, but usually I would need to press the brake too hard to do an effective heel-toe (i.e. if engine breaking in 5th is all I need to slow down for an exit ramp and I have traffic behind me, how do I heel-toe without slowing the car too much?). Also - how do you heel-toe on the street without jerking the car with on/off breaks (heel-toe, coast, heel-toe, coast, etc.)?

any help / tips greatly appreciated

there are different skills - blipping and rev matching downshifts can be practiced at any speed and you don’t always even need to slow down.

Heel toe, sure you need to be slowing enough to hit the brakes. Slowing for red lights or stop signs are always a decent place to do it. A lot of surface street 90 degree turns are fine as well. I have a wider gas pedal so it doesn’t require as much of a hard brake to blip the gas.

then there is double-clutch heel toe downshifting, which is the highest art, and the smoothest possible shift. Best to ignore that tho until you are ok with the basic heel toe downshift. I do about 1/4rd of my street heel toe downshifts as double clutch shifts, and only usually when theres enough time to not rush it too badly. I don’t use it at the track often at all.

 

[Radiation Joe]

It's not terribly important to fast lap times. It's just satisfying to row through the gears smoothly whether shifting up or down. What really makes it satisfying and actually easier is to have a lightweight flywheel installed. The engine responds so much more quickly.
I just read the last post and am surprised. I assumed all along here that people were double clutching while doing this ... not just matching revs for a downshift. This is meaningless shit if you aren't double clutching. Me thinks we need some more videos showing the speed and smoothness of a properly executed double clutch. What's even more satisfying is to complete the downshift with a single blip of the throttle while double clutching.
Ya'll are enticing me to start back at track days so I can take some in car videos to show how the old timers do it. Any old timers out there that can operate in car cameras competently enough to post some footwell videos with sound?

 

[D K]

The idea is to be able to h/t regardless of where the brake pedal is.

Its entirely possible and not too hard.
You can do it in a parking lot, going 20mph, or you can do it slowing down for a red light.

Just use the same amount of brake pressure you would otherwise use,, just move the foot over a little bit.

If anybody lives near Denver, I'd be happy to show it, even though its icy.

How are people practicing heel-toe on the street? I have been trying, but usually I would need to press the brake too hard to do an effective heel-toe (i.e. if engine breaking in 5th is all I need to slow down for an exit ramp and I have traffic behind me, how do I heel-toe without slowing the car too much?). Also - how do you heel-toe on the street without jerking the car with on/off breaks (heel-toe, coast, heel-toe, coast, etc.)?

any help / tips greatly appreciated

 

[D K]

That's fine if you are driving 80%, but sooner or later, y ou are gonna need it (or resort to nannys).

The sooner you learn it or have an idea how to learn/practice the better.

I personally think heel-toe is overrated.

 

[sotek2345]

The idea is to be able to h/t regardless of where the brake pedal is.

Its entirely possible and not too hard.
You can do it in a parking lot, going 20mph, or you can do it slowing down for a red light.

Just use the same amount of brake pressure you would otherwise use,, just move the foot over a little bit.

If anybody lives near Denver, I'd be happy to show it, even though its icy.

Sorry, very far from Denver. (Upstate NY). Appreciate the offer though!

Usually when I am braking (when just cruising around town), I just use the faintest touch on the brake (1/16in motion or less) I can and/or just engine brake. For example, on an exit ramp I might take a half mile to drop 10 to 15 mph for the ramp.

When stopping for a stop sign or stoplight I will usually brush the brake, blip the throttle to rev match and downshift, coast a bit and repeat until down to 20 ish then just clutch in and brake a little harder.

I struggle to hit the gas while moving the brake so little. Usually takes a ~10% brake press or more to get the pedals close enough. Any tips on keeping a light touch?

 

[D K]

So, I would probably start with getting your downshifts complete while braking, not blipping.

Maybe once you are more used to being on the brakes and downsifting, it becomes less of a big deal?

How your pedals line up is specific from car to car and you have to adjust for it.

In the end, you need much less of a blip from 5th to 4th than 3rd to 2nd.

Also, you can get an idea of how to line up your foot on the pedal while standing still.

I drove a Mustang a few days ago, and it wasnt hard to h/t at all. Not saying I'm better than anyone, just saying I was able to do it right away.

So it is possible.

Sorry, very far from Denver. (Upstate NY). Appreciate the offer though!

Usually when I am braking (when just cruising around town), I just use the faintest touch on the brake (1/16in motion or less) I can and/or just engine brake. For example, on an exit ramp I might take a half mile to drop 10 to 15 mph for the ramp.

When stopping for a stop sign or stoplight I will usually brush the brake, blip the throttle to rev match and downshift, coast a bit and repeat until down to 20 ish then just clutch in and brake a little harder.

I struggle to hit the gas while moving the brake so little. Usually takes a ~10% brake press or more to get the pedals close enough. Any tips on keeping a light touch?

 

[sotek2345]

So, I would probably start with getting your downshifts complete while braking, not blipping.

Maybe once you are more used to being on the brakes and downsifting, it becomes less of a big deal?

How your pedals line up is specific from car to car and you have to adjust for it.

In the end, you need much less of a blip from 5th to 4th than 3rd to 2nd.

Also, you can get an idea of how to line up your foot on the pedal while standing still.

I drove a Mustang a few days ago, and it wasnt hard to h/t at all. Not saying I'm better than anyone, just saying I was able to do it right away.

So it is possible.

Thanks, I will give it a try

 

[NeverSatisfied]

Double clutch downshifts are pointless in the modern world of transmissions with good synchronizers.

But I am interested how you can threshold brake a properly brake biased car while downshifting and not disrupt it?

It's not terribly important to fast lap times. It's just satisfying to row through the gears smoothly whether shifting up or down. What really makes it satisfying and actually easier is to have a lightweight flywheel installed. The engine responds so much more quickly.
I just read the last post and am surprised. I assumed all along here that people were double clutching while doing this ... not just matching revs for a downshift. This is meaningless shit if you aren't double clutching. Me thinks we need some more videos showing the speed and smoothness of a properly executed double clutch. What's even more satisfying is to complete the downshift with a single blip of the throttle while double clutching.
Ya'll are enticing me to start back at track days so I can take some in car videos to show how the old timers do it. Any old timers out there that can operate in car cameras competently enough to post some footwell videos with sound?

 

[TeeLew]

That's fine if you are driving 80%, but sooner or later, y ou are gonna need it (or resort to nannys).

The sooner you learn it or have an idea how to learn/practice the better.

LOL.

 

[TeeLew]

Double clutch downshifts are pointless in the modern world of transmissions with good synchronizers.

But I am interested how you can threshold brake a properly brake biased car while downshifting and not disrupt it?

Agreed about double-clutching.

The answer to the question is Anti-lock brakes, which cover many flaws.

 

[Bugs]

Double clutch downshifts are pointless in the modern world of transmissions with good synchronizers.

This is my understanding as well. Many years ago. I drove a 1948 Ford pick-up which required double-clutching to down-shift smoothly. Years later, I think I took 20K miles off the transmission of my cousin's Semi tractor in about 10 minutes when he tried to teach me to drive it. (Sorry Randy!) Other than that, none of my manual-trans vehicles have needed double-clutching.

To those who are saying double-clutching is still applicable to track-driving a modern synchronized transmission, perhaps you're discussing a technique that is different from what I learned to be "double-clutching". I'd appreciate your perspective on how it is still pertinent. I'm old, but still trainable. And I've only recently started my track-day hobby, so I'm all ears.

 

[Grintch]

Double clutching is for non synchronized transmissions. As used in most race cars. It doesn't do anything much for a synchro box other than complicate and slow down the shift.

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