Question about NOT replacing oil pump gears

[daltron]

Both users are also using factory spec oil which I feel is leading to failures more so than anything.

With FI? Wow....

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[Killswitch16GT]

you really thing that is the cause? I ran my terminator with 5w20 and no issues. How can it be oil? I'm not saying your wrong but wanna understand this.

 

[zaquhree]

you really thing that is the cause? I ran my terminator with 5w20 and no issues. How can it be oil? I'm not saying your wrong but wanna understand this.

These motors are a lot higher compression and we are seeing much higher cylinder pressure which creates more heat. I think the 5w20 is just insufficient for alleviating heat built up as well as maintaining proper lubrication capabilities while under the high stress. I have had great success so far with 10w30 pennzoil ultra platinum with a motorcraft filter. This is just me thinking out loud and I am not a very educated individual on these matters. There seems to be a correlation to the issue. We aren't seeing rods throw or rings break...both members are having the bearing noise which to me screams insufficient lubrication or not enough viscosity

 

[Highvoltage16]

I see your point about insufficient lubrication but on the other side of that token we have VCT phasers that have spring tension and oil passages that were carefully tuned and calculated by the ford engineers to operate with 5w-20. obviously not in all, but in some cases the heavier or lighter weight oil causes VCT problems and sets codes. I'm sure the heavier weight oil moving through the oil pump, especially before the engine has had time to reach operating temp could cause a failure too? We're kind stuck in the middle of two problems here...

 

[zaquhree]

I see your point about insufficient lubrication but on the other side of that token we have VCT phasers that have spring tension and oil passages that were carefully tuned and calculated by the ford engineers to operate with 5w-20. obviously not in all, but in some cases the heavier or lighter weight oil causes VCT problems and sets codes. I'm sure the heavier weight oil moving through the oil pump, especially before the engine has had time to reach operating temp could cause a failure too? We're kind stuck in the middle of two problems here...

That's the dilemma is with VCT taken into consideration

I think that cold start viscosity isn't an issue for me in my climate because it stays hot.

I hope we can figure this out

 

[Barrel]

Then again thicker oil can affect the lubrication of other parts in the motor. I'm running 5W20 Royal Purple - if/when my motor goes I doubt it'll be the oil that did it. My shop seems okay with me using it. :shrug: I'm not really qualified to say for sure one way or the other. Just my experience.

Edit:

Highvoltage16 beat me to it.

 

[zaquhree]

Then again thicker oil can affect the lubrication of other parts in the motor. I'm running 5W20 Royal Purple - if/when my motor goes I doubt it'll be the oil that did it. My shop seems okay with me using it. :shrug: I'm not really qualified to say for sure one way or the other. Just my experience.

Me either bud I just like to think out loud so we can all bounce ideas around.

 

[caustin69]

These motors are a lot higher compression and we are seeing much higher cylinder pressure which creates more heat. I think the 5w20 is just insufficient for alleviating heat built up as well as maintaining proper lubrication capabilities while under the high stress. I have had great success so far with 10w30 pennzoil ultra platinum with a motorcraft filter. This is just me thinking out loud and I am not a very educated individual on these matters. There seems to be a correlation to the issue. We aren't seeing rods throw or rings break...both members are having the bearing noise which to me screams insufficient lubrication or not enough viscosity

Here is a good read......It is not a good idea to change oil weight. I have asked Ford engineers this question and always get the same answer.


For high output modular Ford engines including the Coyote, there is a need for an engine oil that is the same viscosity as what Ford recommends from the factory, but is more stable under the heavier shearing loads, and heat from modified engines.



“Unless you’re changing bearing clearances or the oiling system, you should stick with the factory recommended viscosity,” says Speed. So in modified Coyote and modular engines, Driven’s FR20 engine oil offers the benefits of OE recommended viscosity, with better volatility and VI than an off the shelf product.

While some enthusiasts balk at the idea of running lightweight viscosity oils like 5w20 in their engines, the truth is that overhead cam engines rely on those lightweight oils. Unlike a a cam-in-block engine, the camshafts are all the way at the top of the cylinder head, the last place to get oil. This means that when the engine is cold, it’s critical for oil to reach those camshafts as quickly as possible creating the need for a lower viscosity oil.

Changing to a higher viscosity oil can potentially slow down the progress of oil reaching the cams in a timely manner. When you throw in the pressures needed to operate variable valve timing system like on Coyote powered Mustangs, having the proper viscosity is even more critical, since the engine relies on hydraulic pressure from the engine oil to operate.


http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...dular-engines/

 

[zaquhree]

Is that a custom blend? I have never heard of them before.

 

[sigintel]

Oil weight not issue in OPG, TG, Chain failures

I got the same info from a different Ford contact:
Oil weight isnt breaking OPG. Period.

No info on if heavier oil weights are related to rod bearing issues.

Personally, Im 5w20 street use Texas, 0w30 heaviest track day and change it afterwards.

 

[Roh92cp]

Ford contact gave permission to post the info. New thread coming soon.

Higher pressures mean higher peak instantanious acceleration. Each power stroke is a brief crank acceleration so 8 impulses on crank every 2 revoltions (4 stroke cycle).

Ford will likely never say "only xyz" is needed for reliable FI on stock block.

Keep in mind that the heavier rotating mass of Whipple vs Centri and the different belt set ups may mean vastly different peak crank torsional vibration even though both are FI. Turbo setups likely also different.

Bottom line, an ATI damper install is way easier than opg and tg. Cost vs durability benefit is looking very high. Obviously, all three: damper, opg, tg is higher install and parts cost and additional durability.

I suspect the statistics will show few or zero opg failures running ATI damper with Whipple 6 or 10 rib (10 comes w ATI damper? hmmm). I am guessing light weight centri w short belt on stock or race damper will be highest opg or tg failures. Guessing TT closer to centri.

Here is a nice video of Jay at real street performance mentioning the relationship between crank snout vibrations causing failures with crank driven oil pump gears.

 

[zaquhree]

ATI is a big help. I'll be doing mine soon.

 

[desant89]

ATI is a big help. I'll be doing mine soon.

Do you know how hard it is to install the ATI? I ordered one last week. Figured since I am not getting OPG, I can at least do this.

 

[zaquhree]

Do you know how hard it is to install the ATI? I ordered one last week. Figured since I am not getting OPG, I can at least do this.

I think you need a special tool to install the dampener from your local auto parts store. I will be having mine done by a shop and a fuel system wired up. :clap2:

 

[Roh92cp]

Do you know how hard it is to install the ATI? I ordered one last week. Figured since I am not getting OPG, I can at least do this.

I'm looking into the same thing, and also considering the MMR piece made by Romac. Seems the removal and instal is fairly easy. Just not positive about how to or if the timing has to be set once installed.

1. A 3 prong puller to pull the OE damper off. May need to remove fan shroud?
2. Cold crank hot damper with anti seize instal with 12mm x 1.5 pitch 6" threaded rod with nut and large washer to drive the damper on and fulley seat.
3. ARP crank damper bolt torqued to 90 ft lb's I think.
4. Not sure about setting timing? verified from Whipple, ATI and Lethal no need to retime, just bolt on and go.
5. Their is a trick to get the short A/C belt on with a zip tie, but not clear on how it's done yet.

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