Please Educate Me - Why No Spoiler On Performance Pack?

[cop on my back]

There is no comparison to F1. Anyone who disagrees needs to do a google search on the technology, it is mind boggling.

I just wish they would bring back the 21000 RPM V-10s but they are too old school

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[tom_sprecher]

Who buys a 435hp car to never go more than 70? The car will go 165, and at that speed aero will matter a lot. I bet it will hit 120+ even at a short track like TGPR.

But yes, probably me misinterpreting you saying wings were different. They are, but not in terms of producing drag, etc.

So, do you still have the IT7?

Most so own them.

I no longer wish to race anymore after wrecking two of them in the walls at high speed at Road Atlanta in 7 years. My wife and I decided not have a go at a third time. Drive safe and bring it home my friend.

 

[Muff Muff]

we all have a physics degree on the interweb. Explain why engineers at GM choose to use a spoiler on their flag ship corvettes ZR1 & ZO6 to create down force? Because according to you that's not a spoiler's purpose. Here's a few links without all the fancy terminology for the common folk. All these links sure do talk a lot about down force when referring to the zo6 spoiler. They most all be wrong also.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vemp-1006-corvette-wings-spoilers/

http://www.torquenews.com/106/closer-look-three-aero-packages-2015-corvette-z06?page=2

http://katechengines.com/street_performance/downloads/Katech wind tunnel data report.pdf

"Common folk" don't know the difference between a pseudo-force and a true force.

Draw a free body diagram to see the external forces actually affecting the car.

Spoilers reduce lift, but they do not create a downward force. They allow the weight of the car to have a greater effect on the net forces in play, but there is no extra downward pointing arrow in the free body diagram to model "downforce."

An airfoil does create this additional force by the method I mentioned before.

You don't have to agree with me, but the great part about Physics is that it doesn't care about your opinion.

 

[chain]

But at least in NASCAR you can see punches being thrown and guys calling other guys shit heads. lol

And this is why I don't watch Nascar. To much drama and I feel like Nascar all but endorses wrecks and all the BS to help their ratings. I will stick with Indycar where it's more about driving.

I'll also note that as much as I like drag racing and Indycar, I don't think there's any denying F1 is the king of motorsports.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

"Common folk" don't know the difference between a pseudo-force and a true force.

Draw a free body diagram to see the external forces actually affecting the car.

Spoilers reduce lift, but they do not create a downward force. They allow the weight of the car to have a greater effect on the net forces in play, but there is no extra downward pointing arrow in the free body diagram to model "downforce."

An airfoil does create this additional force by the method I mentioned before.

You don't have to agree with me, but the great part about Physics is that it doesn't care about your opinion.

Got it. I figured the men that designed the zo6 didn't have a clue about what they were talking about! GM should Probably have just taken the advice of the dude on the interwebs. Maybe you'll explain pseudo force to em.

 

[5ABI VT]

count me in with those who like the no sppoiler look. If the PP had a spoiler I wouldnt be in a PP. If i couldnt get a pp GT I wouldnt be in a Mustang so Im thankful. Useless or not.. its an addon and imo quite awful looking.

 

[Sekhon]

count me in with those who like the no sppoiler look. If the PP had a spoiler I wouldnt be in a PP. If i couldnt get a pp GT I wouldnt be in a Mustang so Im thankful. Useless or not.. its an addon and imo quite awful looking.

Is pp on mustang really worth it? (besides those 6 piston brembo's)

 

[Semi]

Is pp on mustang really worth it? (besides those 6 piston brembo's)

Those 6 piston brembos might be worth it all alone.

 

[wireeater]

Is pp on mustang really worth it? (besides those 6 piston brembo's)

:headbonk:

Plenty of threads on the PP. Yes it's worth it even if you plan on changing out the suspension.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Got it. I figured the men that designed the zo6 didn't have a clue about what they were talking about! GM should Probably have just taken the advice of the dude on the interwebs. Maybe you'll explain pseudo force to em.

Perhaps spoilers should more accurately be thought of as "lift spoilers", where the intent is to 'spoil' the car's tendency to lift at speed.

A car body shape taken in its entirety being more or less 'rounded' on top and mostly flat on the bottom makes for a wing. Not a very good wing, but a wing that generates lift nonetheless. A spoiler makes this bad wing even poorer as a wing, so I guess you could consider the degree to which a spoiler 'spoils' the car's attempt at being a wing to be a 'pseudo-force'.


Norm

 

[Muff Muff]

Perhaps spoilers should more accurately be thought of as "lift spoilers", where the intent is to 'spoil' the car's tendency to lift at speed.

A car body shape taken in its entirety being more or less 'rounded' on top and mostly flat on the bottom makes for a wing. Not a very good wing, but a wing that generates lift nonetheless. A spoiler makes this bad wing even poorer as a wing, so I guess you could consider the degree to which a spoiler 'spoils' the car's attempt at being a wing to be a 'pseudo-force'.


Norm

Almost. You're correct about the body of the car resembling an airfoil, and thus generating a slight amount of lift. However, because the car never actually "takes off" like an airplane (in normal circumstances) the sum of the net forces in the z-direction, which are lift generated by the body acting as an airfoil, and the weight of the car, always total out to zero. A spoiler does increase traction, so we perceive this as an additional "force" pushing the car down. Really, though, because spoilers only reduce lift, and don't generate downforce, there are no additional forces in the z-direction on top of the generated lift from the body of the car, and the weight of the car. The spoiler is simply allowing the weight of the car to have a greater effect on the tires by reducing the effect of the car body's natural tendency to generate lift, thereby increasing traction. This perceived "force" where one doesnt actually exist is what we call a pseudo-force. Other examples of pseudo-forces are the coriolis effect and the so called "centrifugal" force.

In the spoilers vs. wings debate, wings are superior in their effect on traction because they can actually generate a greater downward force than the weight of the car. A car with a spoiler will never have a total downward force greater than the weight of the car.

For those of you who are actually interested in better understanding vehicle dynamics, I recommend "Physics for Gearheads" by Randy Beikmann. It does a pretty good job of applying Classical Mechanics to cars, but keeps the math fairly simple.

 

[SidewaysMike]

Balance

FWIW I added a bigger spoiler on my Jaguar XKR without changing the splitter and ended up with a floatier front end. It was very annoying at highway speeds making the front feel unstable and less planted.

 

[PatrickGT]

FWIW I added a bigger spoiler on my Jaguar XKR without changing the splitter and ended up with a floatier front end. It was very annoying at highway speeds making the front feel unstable and less planted.

Yeah I brought that up on the second page but apparently these grown-ass men want to have a pointless dick-wagging semantics argument and be shit to one another without anyone showing any real intelligence.

I mean "well apparently you don't know/since you seem to have reading comprehension issues..." and similar statements should be followed by an explanation. In your own words, mind you... don't ever let another man speak for you. It just should, otherwise you are just a common asshole.

 

[Matrix2020]

FWIW, Spoilers are designed to 'Spoil' the airflow to reduce drag and therefore increase fuel efficiency. When they are shaped for design benefit they actually increase drag but aim to look cool!! As soon as the add down force they add drag.... not what Spoilers are designed to do!!

 

[Norm Peterson]

Almost. You're correct about the body of the car resembling an airfoil, and thus generating a slight amount of lift. However, because the car never actually "takes off" like an airplane (in normal circumstances) the sum of the net forces in the z-direction, which are lift generated by the body acting as an airfoil, and the weight of the car, always total out to zero.

IOW, Lift + CarWeight + ΣTireLoads = 0

I think we're saying the same thing here

I've never worked with aircraft aero topics, so I assume that car speeds are always lower than any take-off speed (certainly for my own driving, occasional LeMans incidents involving flight notwithstanding).

Otherwise ΣTireLoads = 0 and a nonzero sum of the other two forces would cause a net Z-axis acceleration one way or the other.

For those of you who are actually interested in better understanding vehicle dynamics, I recommend "Physics for Gearheads" by Randy Beikmann. It does a pretty good job of applying Classical Mechanics to cars, but keeps the math fairly simple.

Don't have that one in my library, might be useful. Source?


Norm

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