Please Educate Me On Torque Management

[NoVaGT]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this properly.

I've read a few references to torque management, as part of the OEM tune. Is this really the AdvanceTrac software? Is it simply the ECU cutting torque/power when it thinks it needs to? Are our cars not as fast as they could be, because the ECU is cutting the torque/power?

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[IrishStallion]

The car has multiple ways to cut power besides advancetrac. That is the point of tuning...

 

[NoVaGT]

The car has multiple ways to cut power besides advancetrac. That is the point of tuning...

Sooo.....any more info you can provide? Can you tell me about the other ways these cars cut power, and why? Under what circumstances? With what systems?

 

[Dfeeds]

Torque management isn't necessarily tied to any form of traction/stability control and comes in many forms. Torque truncation, for example, is when the tune limits available torque to protect the transmission. This can be constant or set to limit torque that exceeds a certain number. This won't change by turning off traction control. Different drive modes, to my knowledge, can affect this.

It's also not something you can just flip off. If you go to hptuners (a good place to learn some of this) you will read how poor the drivability is for those that have tried to just turn it all off. It's a delicate balancing act.

 

[JimC]

Torque management comes into play when you try to do a brake stand burnout for example on the stock tune. The car will not allow you to get over about 2,000 rpm doing a brake stand to avoid damage to the transmission and the only way to defeat it is to either have the onboard line lock or a tune to overrride the torque management.

 

[engineermike]

The pcm interprets your throttle input as a torque demand. There are about a zillion reasons for it to reduce torque, which is generally referred to as torque management. It will cut torque during shifts, to protect mechanical components, to limit wheel torque in lower gears, or a long list of other reasons. It gets interesting when you start talking about fast-path vs slow-path torque reductions. Closing the throttle is the slowest way to cut torque as the engine still has to use up air in the plenum. Fuel and spark cut are fast-path. When you’re driving at steady state and reduce throttle pedal, the pcm actually cuts timing initially because you get a quicker torque reduction. It’s very fascinating when you start digging into it.

 

[NoVaGT]

Torque management isn't necessarily tied to any form of traction/stability control and comes in many forms. Torque truncation, for example, is when the tune limits available torque to protect the transmission. This can be constant or set to limit torque that exceeds a certain number. This won't change by turning off traction control. Different drive modes, to my knowledge, can affect this.

It's also not something you can just flip off. If you go to hptuners (a good place to learn some of this) you will read how poor the drivability is for those that have tried to just turn it all off. It's a delicate balancing act.

Does anyone know factually if the S550s reduce torque? Or are these just generalized observations on T.M.? It's odd that removing TM from OEM tunes causes poor drivability. What'd we do before TM?

Thanks for the hptuners idea, I'll check it out.

The pcm interprets your throttle input as a torque demand. There are about a zillion reasons for it to reduce torque, which is generally referred to as torque management. It will cut torque during shifts, to protect mechanical components, to limit wheel torque in lower gears, or a long list of other reasons. It gets interesting when you start talking about fast-path vs slow-path torque reductions. Closing the throttle is the slowest way to cut torque as the engine still has to use up air in the plenum. Fuel and spark cut are fast-path. When you’re driving at steady state and reduce throttle pedal, the pcm actually cuts timing initially because you get a quicker torque reduction. It’s very fascinating when you start digging into it.

Very interesting. Thanks.

You've read/confirmed that S550s have all of those TM stratagies?

 

[engineermike]

You've read/confirmed that S550s have all of those TM stratagies?

I’d have to look at the stock cal to see exactly what is in place, but I can say with a high degree of confidence that virtually all new cars use some level of torque management depending on the situation.

 

[Dfeeds]

Does anyone know factually if the S550s reduce torque? Or are these just generalized observations on T.M.? It's odd that removing TM from OEM tunes causes poor drivability. What'd we do before TM?

Thanks for the hptuners idea, I'll check it out.



Very interesting. Thanks.

You've read/confirmed that S550s have all of those TM stratagies?

It's discussed heavily with logs and all over there. It's fact. Torque truncation is a literal value that's input to reduce torque when it exceeds said value in the programmed situation. This varies by gear and load. Adjusting this on a whim can make the gears clunk or cause a lot of jerking when shifting. What did we do before TM? We dealt with it. Now everyone wants their 700 hp car to drive like a prius around town.

 

[IrishStallion]

It can cut timing via spark, close throttle, limit rpms through use of limiters on both ecu and tcu. If you log a stock tune read torque source on the shifts. You will see reduced timing versus a tuned car.

 

[NoVaGT]

......can make the gears clunk or cause a lot of jerking when shifting. What did we do before TM? We dealt with it......

Well, we actually knew how to drive, how to properly use three pedals.

I'm 100% certain it can be aced, at it would be fine. Other than maybe over-taxing something in the transmission.

 

[Dfeeds]

Well, we actually knew how to drive, how to properly use three pedals.

I'm 100% certain it can be aced, at it would be fine. Other than maybe over-taxing something in the transmission.

You're probably not wrong. Although there is advantages to limiting low end torque. It can definitely help people get more consistent 60 ft times, for instance. I have read that the a10 has a bit more of it than the m6. So, disregarding double the underdrive gears, the m6 puts more power to the wheels. In all honesty, this makes sense. Your average shmoo would put the car into a pole, without it, considering how short first gear is on the a10. Even beyond that, it would be a useless gear. Limiting the low end torque (for a clean take off) while utilizing more gears to keep the car in peak power once you're out of the gate has shown to put up some good 1/4 times.

It also explains why most of the complaints about the lack of low end come from the a10 owners (from my observations).

 

[NoVaGT]

.......It also explains why most of the complaints about the lack of low end come from the a10 owners (from my observations).

Weird......I think it's the MT82 owners that complain the most.

The car feels slow with the new gears, in comparison to my 2016 GT PP1 car. Letting lose some more torque could help a lot, IMO.

 

[Dfeeds]

Weird......I think it's the MT82 owners that complain the most.

The car feels slow with the new gears, in comparison to my 2016 GT PP1 car. Letting lose some more torque could help a lot, IMO.

I think there's a difference between saying it feels slow and lacks low end, although they're used interchangeably. That thread posted a little while back where the op was talking about struggling to lose control or spin the tires is where I saw it. Everyone that said they have no issues spinning the tires, mostly, had a manual. Those that were in agreement with the OP had an auto.

Then another member posted that the autos put less power to the ground than the m6 and recommended hptuners. This made sense (as opposed to the implication that some are just "better" drivers), and that's when I first checked it out.

Then I recalled, in the 2018+ ford power pack thread, that many said they noticed no difference and others noticed a big difference. Look a little closer and (the op of the previously mentioned thread included) the people who didn't notice a difference all had autos.

 

[Balr14]

I have the A10 and low-end torque definitely feels lacking. But, I have the convertible with 3.15 gears, so I'm not surprised.

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