Manuals Are Losers

[shogun32]

Also would you rather no Mustang on the market at all or maybe a DCT or auto only options.

no mustang, period. I'll go find something else to drive - even if it's a Kia or Civic with 2L 4 banger turbo. I don't care if BMW is the "ultimate driving machine" no manual means I absolutely NEVER buy one. It's really that simple.

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[IMadeYouReadThis]

I get it, my car is a manual. I enjoy manual. But there are better ways to advocate our preferences that to trash the people that are a automatic fans. I'm not saying that's what you are doing here but a tit for tat type argument doesn't hold water for me.

Let's be real autos have gotten very very good. Faster than manuals in 90% of their use cases, easier to drive if someone can't be bothered to or just plain cant clutch due to injury or whatever, . If we want to advocate for manuals then we need to advocate for the driving experience, rowing the gears, running through them on a long hill accelerating, the engine blip you get down shifting. Make it about an experience and not better or worse. It's a preference.

Also would you rather no Mustang on the market at all or maybe a DCT or auto only options. Because if the auto wasn't offered on it I guarantee the Mustang wouldn't be for sale today. Us manuals just aren't a big enough market, and at the end of the day I think it's more important that there's another V8 RWD American sports car on the market in general than to have a manual Available in that car or not at all.

I know this was meant for Norm and he did answer you but I want to throw in my two cents.

If they were only making automatic Mustangs or Camaros or Challengers for that matter I wouldn't care if they were on the market or not because I wouldn't buy them.

The new Corvette is absolutely beautiful but to me it is something I will never even consider owning due to the fact it's auto only

I'm pretty sure the Mustang sells close to 50% of the GTs with the Lord's transmission as well you may want to check those numbers but I know they sell a lot.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I get it, my car is a manual. I enjoy manual. But there are better ways to advocate our preferences that to trash the people that are a automatic fans.

Trashing AT fans??? How so? Indirectly in that I notice and am annoyed by things that don't bother them? That it's hard to imagine what losing your preference might mean when it's only somebody else's preference that's in danger of going away?

Let's be real autos have gotten very very good.

I understand that. Like I've said before, I've put a fair amount of time into understanding automatic transmissions and how they operate. Probably more than most here who aren't in the business of transmission repair.

Faster than manuals in 90% of their use cases, easier to drive if someone can't be bothered to or just plain cant clutch due to injury or whatever

I get all that. Faster because of transmission type means nothing to me, and I'll never begrudge transmission choices made for traffic, medical, or similar reasons.

If we want to advocate for manuals then we need to advocate for the driving experience, rowing the gears, running through them on a long hill accelerating, the engine blip you get down shifting. Make it about an experience and not better or worse. It's a preference.

Making the understanding of that actually happen in others is where the hard part would lie in today's sound-bite/instant gratification/number-focused world. It'd be nice, though.

Also would you rather no Mustang on the market at all or maybe a DCT or auto only options. Because if the auto wasn't offered on it I guarantee the Mustang wouldn't be for sale today.

Let me put it this way . . . if the '08 Mustang had been automatic-only I wouldn't have even looked at it. If I'd been shopping three years later, I'd have picked a 3.7L V6 with MT without second thought if the 5.0's had only been available with automatic.

I should tell you that I/we have gone as far as to "jump ship" from one car mfr to another on at least two of our "family car" purchases specifically over the issue of MT availability. That's twice out of only 7 total family car purchases (not counting the Mustang) over the last nearly 50 years.


Norm

 

[WildHorse]

 

[Arthonon]

I get all that. Faster because of transmission type means nothing to me, and I'll never begrudge transmission choices made for traffic, medical, or similar reasons.

There are other parts of your replies I could respond to, but I think this might be the most efficient way to get some insights: for what reasons WOULD you begrudge someone else's transmission choice?

 

[Rael]

I don't understand this controversy. That Norm Peterson wouldn't begrudge some doesn't mean he would begrudge others.

Six of the seven cars I've owned were Mustangs. But I was looking to other manufacturers just recently because I couldn't find a suitable Mustang GT with a manual transmission. I love driving, and shifting gears up and down, including on race tracks, but I don't race others, so I don't care that a car identical to mine but with an automatic could get around or drive in a straight line faster.

 

[Norm Peterson]

There are other parts of your replies I could respond to, but I think this might be the most efficient way to get some insights: for what reasons WOULD you begrudge someone else's transmission choice?

I'm not into begrudging other peoples' choices and I've heard/read just about all of the reasons, so there isn't anything that comes to mind.

Letting yourself be pushed into buying an AT car by a dealership salesperson over your own stated preference for MT probably comes close, but that's less about transmissions than letting somebody else run roughshod over what you want.


Norm

 

[Dfeeds]

It's honestly anyone's preference one way or the other. It always has been and that's totally cool. What loses me is the whole "the auto is more advanced so it's faster" argument. It definitely shifts faster than an auto from 10 years ago but it's faster because it has ten gears. Combine that the auto has, what, 7 (6?) underdrive gears to the manual that went from 4 to 3 underdrive gears and no sh*t it's faster in a straight line. I know a lot of people understand this but some definitely don't. It's not some wizardry at work.

This brings me to my other reason for owning a stick in that getting the skill down is fun. The live action speed racer was always an odd sort of inspiration because they show them shifting and the clutch work is insanely fast. I love nailing a shift at that same rate of speed. It's so much fun hitting a shift perfectly and being able to press and depress the clutch as fast as my left foot is capable and not botching it. Of course it's never consistent but I'll be dammed if it's not rewarding. I've had people comment on how incredibly fast I shift and I love it because that's what I work so hard for. I have no problem conceding that the auto is faster in a straight, but I'd give up a large chunk of my enjoyment of getting behind the wheel if I got one.

 

[Dave2013M3]

I have no interest in EVs in large part because they'd remove me even further from the overall experience. I have zero interest in dragging politics into forum discussions in general, let alone those with any technical content. So if that creeps into this thread it won't be on my account.

As I've said before, even today's levels of EV performance aren't worth enough to me to make me actually want one. Not when I view driving as an activity more to be enjoyed and satisfied with my total part in. I got over letting things like momentary excitement and bragging rights impress me decades ago, if I ever felt that way at all.

Off the top of my head, an EV is going to drive much like an ICE-powered car backed by a CVT (minus the CVT's "motorboating" sound track). What I have very reliably heard about CVTs is that the driver has to adapt himself to that transmission's additional (and alien to a MT die-hard) nuances. Adapting to a transmission's nuances, or to an EV's complete lack of shifting being a set of vehicle-level nuances really amounts to the technology training you to become more like it than to yourself (yeah, I know about Porsche's 2-speed EV).


Norm

This!!!

 

[hellohello123]

When you're on the "I like automatics" or only that you're OK with them, it's too easy to completely miss the point that overwhelming acceptance of ATs among enthusiasts (and their endless refrain of "ATs are faster") represents yet another nail in the MT's coffin.

So it's not so much about tying self worth to transmission type. On the MT side it's also about whether you're going to have your preference at all. And losing that can be a bitter pill that doesn't go down at all easily. Trust me on this.


Norm

I'm not directing this at you but the whole at vs Mt debate.

I don't know why it has to be so complicated/personal or political.

From what I can see the auto is faster than the best manual driver on earth

I love manual because i feel connected to the car. Auto bores me to bits.

So I'm sacrificing the speed differnece for my enjoyment. Personal choice

I get the whole turbo vs v8 debate but the auto vs manual debate to me is petty and egotisitcal

Sure, manual drivers may have a better understanding of the car and thus "could" be better drivers but I don't really care

 

[Rapid Red]

I have no interest in EVs in large part because they'd remove me even further from the overall experience.

Norm

This ....^..... sums it up, and for me the same goes for any car. Not built by one of the traditional big 3, or any car AT shifted.

 

[Bobn57]

I've been driving sticks since 1978....first learned on an MGB midget in the hills of Pa.
from 78 through 1990, all my cars and trucks were sticks.....We converted my 71 Cougar from an FMX auto to a stick. Sticks are fun.....except when sitting in bumper to bumper traffic. My 06GT was an auto. I loved that car and bought it as an auto thinking my wife could drive it as well. She never did so for 14 years I wanted to turn it into a manual but didn't get the chance. When I ordered the GT/CS I got my manual back. Yesterday I sat in bumper to bumper traffic for 45 minutes due to a vehicle fire on parkway. Glad I wasn't driving the stang..... brings back memories of driving home from the shore when I was younger and my left leg was a lot stronger
Everyone has their preference.

 

[jwt]

....

This brings me to my other reason for owning a stick in that getting the skill down is fun. The live action speed racer was always an odd sort of inspiration because they show them shifting and the clutch work is insanely fast. I love nailing a shift at that same rate of speed. It's so much fun hitting a shift perfectly and being able to press and depress the clutch as fast as my left foot is capable and not botching it. Of course it's never consistent but I'll be dammed if it's not rewarding. I've had people comment on how incredibly fast I shift and I love it because that's what I work so hard for. I have no problem conceding that the auto is faster in a straight, but I'd give up a large chunk of my enjoyment of getting behind the wheel if I got one.

Coming from a country where rally is king of motorsports this is what impresses me. Mashing the right pedal from a standing start to the end of a 1/4 mile doesn't do it for me. I appreciate the technical engineering and sheer gonads it requires but watching a rally car driver perform ballet stands the hairs up on my neck. Your mileage may vary

 

[shogun32]

Mashing the right pedal from a standing start to the end of a 1/4 mile doesn't do it for me.

because it requires no skill whatsoever.

I'm going to have to try learning how to left foot brake. Knowing me I'll get the brake and clutch confused and mash the brake when I meant to do the clutch.

 

[jwt]

I've done that and only the seatbelt stopped me head butting the windscreen. Muscle memory is a bitch and your left leg thinks its going to depress the clutch not tease the brake

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