Manuals Are Losers

[Sivi70980]

Most people never notice.



If you're a pro driver - which implies running or having run in some upper level of competitive motorsports - you'd have forced yourself to get past any objections you might have had to the transmission type, given that that could be the difference in your finishing position. I've even said publicly that I'd suck it up and do that, too, if I was near the pointy end of a W2W or Time Trial series.



Annoying is necessarily a personal and subjective thing where there's no such thing as objective accuracy. There is no guarantee that what I find annoying is anything you'd even notice. And on the other side of the coin, you can't extend your definitions of what might be just barely unnoticeable to you as being a lower-limit boundary on what might bother me or anybody else.

I know enough about how things like torque converters and hydraulically-applied clutches work to more or less understand their basic operational characteristics on a time-history basis. Not just by what they might feel like, which is the only thing most other people even begin to consider (it's the engineer in me, and I can relate theory to actual practice). I've even looked into these 10R80/10L90 transmissions in some detail, just to understand them better.


Norm

I'm sure it's been asked of you before Norm but I don't remember. What about cars with only one forward gear like most electrics? They aren't automatics and 99% of your track issues aren't there. It's all about foot control and takes gears out of the equation. Other than getting bored because no shifting, thoughts? Also going for more performance oriented than political BS.

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[Norm Peterson]

I'm sure it's been asked of you before Norm but I don't remember. What about cars with only one forward gear like most electrics? They aren't automatics and 99% of your track issues aren't there. It's all about foot control and takes gears out of the equation. Other than getting bored because no shifting, thoughts? Also going for more performance oriented than political BS.

I have no interest in EVs in large part because they'd remove me even further from the overall experience. I have zero interest in dragging politics into forum discussions in general, let alone those with any technical content. So if that creeps into this thread it won't be on my account.

As I've said before, even today's levels of EV performance aren't worth enough to me to make me actually want one. Not when I view driving as an activity more to be enjoyed and satisfied with my total part in. I got over letting things like momentary excitement and bragging rights impress me decades ago, if I ever felt that way at all.

Off the top of my head, an EV is going to drive much like an ICE-powered car backed by a CVT (minus the CVT's "motorboating" sound track). What I have very reliably heard about CVTs is that the driver has to adapt himself to that transmission's additional (and alien to a MT die-hard) nuances. Adapting to a transmission's nuances, or to an EV's complete lack of shifting being a set of vehicle-level nuances really amounts to the technology training you to become more like it than to yourself (yeah, I know about Porsche's 2-speed EV).


Norm

 

[Sivi70980]

I have no interest in EVs in large part because they'd remove me even further from the overall experience. I have zero interest in dragging politics into forum discussions in general, let alone those with any technical content. So if that creeps into this thread it won't be on my account.

As I've said before, even today's levels of EV performance aren't worth enough to me to make me actually want one. Not when I view driving as an activity more to be enjoyed and satisfied with my total part in. I got over letting things like momentary excitement and bragging rights impress me decades ago, if I ever felt that way at all.

Off the top of my head, an EV is going to drive much like an ICE-powered car backed by a CVT (minus the CVT's "motorboating" sound track). What I have very reliably heard about CVTs is that the driver has to adapt himself to that transmission's additional (and alien to a MT die-hard) nuances. Adapting to a transmission's nuances, or to an EV's complete lack of shifting being a set of vehicle-level nuances really amounts to the technology training you to become more like it than to yourself (yeah, I know about Porsche's 2-speed EV).


Norm

My wife's Honda has a CVT and I hate it. For going A to B it's okay but when trying to actually drive, terrible. Of course I end up going back to Honda in general so I'll stop there.

What I was getting at with EV's was the single gear. Many of your talking points revolve around shifting be it by you or worse, by a computer. Maybe Go Karts fit better here like the ones you can drive at the put put golf course that just have the one gear. Granted we've all pretty much graduated from go karts long ago, how do you feel about them? Of course you already hit on the CVT thing witch I guess is an attempt at where I was going. That auto that is just simple power delivery. Almost time to go home from work and lost my train of thought...till next time haha.

 

[Rock&Roll]

Whatever

All the fun is in the stick

 

[Norm Peterson]

Maybe Go Karts fit better here like the ones you can drive at the put put golf course that just have the one gear.

Heh . . . my first exposures to go-karts was with karts that you bought and may have actually raced. Mostly the people I knew just drove them in parking lots or on lightly traveled streets until the cops showed up. Most were powered by 2-stroke Clinton, McCulloch, or West Bend engines and were much faster than any of the 4-stroke powered putt-putt variety. This would have been in the late 1950s, at least 5 years before I was even learner-permitted to drive a car. And as far as I know even now, before shifter karts were available. I was, at one point, seriously considering building my own go-kart running a 250cc-ish motorcycle engine and its 5-speed transmission. Seriously enough to have started fabricating a basic frame for it.

Point being that my perspective on the putt-putts was spoiled from the get-go. Good for refining one's perceptions of a decent "racing line" and how close you could get to nailing an apex without running an inside tire into anything, I guess.

A couple of years ago I took in a couple of brief sessions at the local indoor electric go-kart place. The courses are way too short and tight for any human shifting, and you're at or close to max lat-g too much of the time to want any automated shifting potentially upsetting the kart's balance and putting you into the tires.

In that environment, karts really are a lot of fun (especially when you can come in to the place cold and post lap times close to those of more experienced kart drivers). I was always getting a warning sign from the starter about "slowing down" at the end of my out laps . . . hell, those were my "easy" laps, just warming the tires, feeling out "the line", and getting a glimpse at how the kart might actually drive when driven hard. Guess he wasn't expecting much more than putt-putt driving from a guy my age (71 at the time) and appearance (more salt than pepper on the roof).

To bring this around a bit closer to opic, one-speed driving can be fun, even a lot of fun under the right circumstances. What constitutes those "right circumstances" will obviously vary from one individual to the next.


Norm

 

[Sivi70980]

Good God, are we still beating this dead horse.

Manuals are fun and great for those that want them.

Automatics have gotten really good and are also a totally acceptable option.

Stop putting your and others self worth behind what kind of transmission is in your car FFS.

Nope. You have to like what I like because I like it. My choice is the best choice always. How dare you do what YOU want. Hahaha!

 

[REVTMOLO]

I can't imagine how tiny someones mind must be that they put this much value on what transmission is in their car and think it somehow makes them superior. I've been driving manual cars since 1987. Everything from trucks, RX-7's, mustangs and Miata's up to a Z06. Only auto I ever owned was a 2nd gen Trans-Am in 1992. I'm 51 now and my left knee gives me trouble. What should I do in this case? Get a econobox? A minivan? Some luxury land tank?

No. I'm still a sports car guy and I will continue to be one. I'm not going to let an uncooperative knee get in my way. BTW I just drove my buddies GT350 a few months back... If I could justify the cost THAT is a manual I could drive. Crazy light clutch pedal and uber short throw on the stick.

I love manuals... That said, I have an an Auto.

I just don't see the point in bitching about other peoples cars other than to make yourself feel better. Don't be a dolt.

 

[Johnnybee]

The first time I ever drove a car, it was a manual, when I was about 13 (some 45+ years ago now) at our cottage. My brother took me out in his Datsun and got me moving the car, albeit only in first as there wasn't enough room to upshift. Since then I've owned plenty of manuals from original Minis, an MG Midget, Triumph TR8, domestic and import econoboxes and sedans. When I went looking for a Mustang, I decided to get an automatic, not because it might be faster than a manual, but because I'm probably going to have it into my golden years, and I have many older friends who had to give up a car because they had leg or knee problems that precluded them using a clutch, and I basically plan on having this car until they take my license away. I don't care what anybody else chooses. Everybody has their own ideas and what they decide is good for them. Just don't tell me I should've got a manual (or a coupe or a V8).

 

[Norm Peterson]

Manuals are fun and great for those that want them.

Automatics have gotten really good and are also a totally acceptable option.

Stop putting your and others self worth behind what kind of transmission is in your car FFS.

When you're on the "I like automatics" or only that you're OK with them, it's too easy to completely miss the point that overwhelming acceptance of ATs among enthusiasts (and their endless refrain of "ATs are faster") represents yet another nail in the MT's coffin.

So it's not so much about tying self worth to transmission type. On the MT side it's also about whether you're going to have your preference at all. And losing that can be a bitter pill that doesn't go down at all easily. Trust me on this.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

I'm 51 now and my left knee gives me trouble. What should I do in this case?

go see a trigger point therapist and TOUGH IT OUT like a real man! Your grandpappy got shot at for 4 years and your dad, too probably
/JK

I would probably still drive stick even if they amputated my left leg at the knee. I'd probably retrofit a motorcycle clutch so it would be hand operated... And while I was at it put a sequential gear box in.

 

[jwt]

Video of a plaid Tesla doing the ring





What struck me was that if going fast around a circuit is a combination of skill, suspension, tires, engine and transmission then the ev removes 2 of those variables which should make tuning the remaining 3 easier. And that tesla needed better tires and suspension

 

[Ebm]

Only thing that makes driving a manual hard is trying to eat or drink something while holding the steering wheel and shifting gears. Have to focus so hard, you get sweaty hands!

 

[shogun32]

And that tesla needed better tires and suspension

they need to lose 1000 pounds and figure out how to recharge to full in 10 minutes.

 

[Arthonon]

When you're on the "I like automatics" or only that you're OK with them, it's too easy to completely miss the point that overwhelming acceptance of ATs among enthusiasts (and their endless refrain of "ATs are faster") represents yet another nail in the MT's coffin.

So it's not so much about tying self worth to transmission type. On the MT side it's also about whether you're going to have your preference at all. And losing that can be a bitter pill that doesn't go down at all easily. Trust me on this.


Norm

You've brought this up before, and I am curious about what it is you're trying to accomplish by posting that, and everything else that you do here.

Do you want to convince people to buy a manual instead of an automatic, so that you can keep your manual? Is your expectation that because you want it, everyone else should buy what you want?

It's not like manual transmissions are new - people knew of them when they bought their autos, I'm sure. And they made a conscious decision to buy their preference. I can't imagine that you harping at them is going to make any difference.

My '18 Mustang was the first performance car I ever bought that had an auto, and the second auto I had purchased in 30 years (the first being an Escape in 2008, to go with my manual '04 Mustang). I did it because it checked more boxes for me at the time than the manual.

And you know, cars weren't invented so people could use a manual transmission, the manual transmission was developed so people could drive cars. And transmissions have been evolving since day one, and will keep evolving, as will the automobile.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You've brought this up before, and I am curious about what it is you're trying to accomplish by posting that

You can't feel the loss of something when there remains at least one acceptable alternative. Not like you do when you're already losing that particular something (have you checked into how many reasonably affordable and reasonably practical sedans can be had with a manual transmission lately?).

and everything else that you do here.

I have no idea where that's coming from. But feel free to use anything I do post if you think it might help, or ignore it if you don't think it will. Zook's analogy way back in post #2 pretty much said it all when the AT is on its best game and you're only looking at results. I'm just filling in some thoughts that go beyond those results. Like the fact that refinement can mean loss as well as benefit.

Beyond that, we're simply going to have to agree to disagree over this particular topic and its click-bait title.


Norm

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