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seely
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I've been speaking with someone from PBD and they said they can easily get me a safe tune for 91 for the whipple stage 2 kit alone (no other upgrades). They also mentioned the option of upgrading the fuel system and doing tunes for 91 and E85 that i can switch back and forth from.
Not to discredit you but it seems more simplified than what youre saying?
Roush Phase2 sounds good as well. Cheaper and TBH I also like how it looks better.
..I forgot to mention im rarely taking it into the 7000rpm+ range. Dont really have long strips of road where i live and on the freeway i dont do pulls that often maybe once in a while just to remind myself how fast i can shift. I do take it up to 120-140mph often thats my way of abusing the car. TBH Im mostly in this for the build project something to wrench on. I do enjoy fun driving i ride motorcycles fast and work on those and old cars but i think im more motivated by the build than anything. So building something safe, simple and mostly reliable is my target.
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engineermike
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How safe is safe enough for you? Are you ok with it knocking at wot on every pull?
I’m a Whipple guy but IMO it sounds like Roush is the better kit for you.
illtal
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If you're not going to tune it boost it higher or play with it any further, any stage one can get you well over 600 wheel. I would NEVER recommend the roush blower to anyone, I'd recommend a centri before that. Them Inlet temps are terrible but the calibration seems to work well enough to shut down the fun before anything happens. Yet it can still get you well over 600 wheel as well.
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seely
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Whats the reasoning? I still cant run E85 on that. Do you mean the Roush Kit and their factory tune and run 91?
are you talking about using 91 octane?
I'm sort of back to square one. Running E85 is going to be a lot more expensive that I thought about $4000 grand extra including the tune. This is the fuel system setup they recommend to run for E85.
And my thinking is i want to stay within the 750HP range b/c I dont want to start upgrading drivetrain, so its seems like a waste of money.
https://www.pbdyno.com/Fore-Innovations-2018-Mustang-L2-Fuel-System-dual-_p_411.html
https://www.pbdyno.com/Injector-Dynamics-ID1050x-for-2018-F150-w-Whipple_p_162.html
im now considering octane boost and running the Whipple kit ALONE with their factory tune
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illtal
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4k for a return system? I hope that's including install which still seems a tad bit high for me. You can spray meth/water for a lot less, but nothing will beat just running an alcohol fuel because of the cooling and it's getting metered by the PCM.
If you have a A10, going into 7th I believe is where you will have a problem, but most street races and even drag races are over before then anyway. it's up to you, don't skimp on octane if you can, boostane and other octane boosters are SUPER expensive to run.
engineermike
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The Roush kit has a better factory tune, especially for lower octane, and it runs more boost which pumps up the low-end torque. The Roush doesn’t make great power past 7000 rpm, so it has more of a torquey power band. The power curve seems to match what you want better.
I know it sounds counterintuitive that it runs more boost but is better for low octane, but the way it manages knock through spark timing, cam timing, and lambda, works better with low octane. The Whipple, for instance, optimizes lambda and cam timing for octane-boosted 93.
Yes.
The only real downside to the Roush kit is a horribly-designed intercooler. If you were tune-savvy, you could run the Whipple stage 2 kit and the Roush tune. I’ve 70% done that on mine.
Zrussian13
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Op if you want to run the whipple kit with their supplied tune and use octane booster you should be fine. Even an aftermarket tune on 91 with octane booster should be fine. When most guys talk hp numbers, they are talking whp. You keep referencing 720-750 but I don't think your talking about turning it up to get that at the wheels. At the crank that should be easily attainable. For comparison, I run 8lbs on a TT setup and have crappy 91oct plus octane booster. I've put 20k miles on my car in the last 13 months and it runs great. I havent dyno'd it but it should be roughly 750 at the crank. So your goals seem fine just don't turn it up with out understanding the consequences. Mike and others are telling you about the limitations of the high compression coyote engine but most of what's being referenced is talking whp. Under 700whp I wouldn't think twice. Everyone, feel free to roast me if you disagree! Lol
Zrussian13
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I might but haven't hit the dyno yet! My car runs strong and handles DD duties with lots of 140mph pulls. My worst fear is getting on a dyno and blowing it up! Ives seen lots of numbers for 8lbs on a hellion set up between 650-700 so I figure I'm probably safe calling it 650whp...
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Zrussian13
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Just the base 62s.
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seely
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Thanks I agree with them and do understand the knock limits a lot more now, mainly that octane limitations will limit the power in general for the coyote specifically.
IMO the Whipple is more of interest because
1. it has a lot of support
2. if im spending in the range of $10k , I might as well buy something that has future potential in case I do want to swap the fuel system and upgrade drive train in the future to support 700WHP on E85.
I'm sure this is why most people buy the Whipple anyway.
illtal
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they are plenty though
No supercharger will EVER beat a turbo in outright performance (HP/TQ). when it comes to power. it's simply not possible because the belt drive system.
Superchargers do have an advantage of ease of use and low maintenance, which is why they are popular options for FI.
The whipple gen 5 units in particular perform really well due to the fact that you get the best of a centri setup (HP figures keep climbing even at redline, ESPECIALLY on the 3.8), and the instant boost response typical of a PD supercharger, but it isn't as strong as say a TVS. Also the torque curve stays flat thru the rpm range, there isn't a huge swell and release like the TVS.
For instance my EB2650 hits over 605-610 tq, and my hp is around 701-705. That torque starts to taper off substantially around 6500 RPM but i'm still very close to 700 wheel still.
A whipple that's making 730+ will still have torque figures in the 550 range, with very little fall off and the HP still goes through the pull. It's more efficient running more rotor speed than the TVS units.
The cooling also is very good, I'd say the best of all the PD superchargers, and it can be enhanced even more.
But turbo is the way to go if you want the power, no belts to rob power from the engine. Thus you can make MORE power with less boost. There's the maintenance trade off, and dealing with couplers and hose potentially getting blown off and potentially high speed traction loss depending on when the turbo(s) start giving the juice. But if I had to do it over again, I think I'd go turbo.
engineermike
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Can’t argue with that.
If upgrading to E85, the single big disadvantage of the Roush kit becomes moot. The small intercooler doesn’t hurt you much once knock is no longer an issue. Roush cars that have converted to E85 make very good power.
One final word regarding the Roush tune: The “canned” Roush tune is the closest I’ve seen to an OEM-quality-level tune in the aftermarket. In fact, I would wager that the same person had a hand in both the Roush and GT500 tunes because there are aspects that are eerily similar, even identical in some cases.
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