Is Ford lacking on performance?

[millhouse]

It's crazy when that mindset is allowed to hold absolute priority over performance for option packages specifically pitched as optional performance upgrades. I'm looking directly at the PP1 here.


Norm

I disagree, the take rate on the PP1 proves that what most people really wanted was unique wheels/tires, brembo brakes and a torsen rear diff....and most would never see the track. Ford could have never add the extra radiator cooling or suspension upgrades...and most would have still purchased the PP1.

Most people have and will never push the PP1 long enough to warrant trans and diff coolers. At $2500, the PP1 for me was a no brainer. Add on a trans and diff cooler and at $3500 to $4000 that price becomes more difficult to swallow...all for something I have no intent on exploiting.

Now for the PP2, I completely agree...anytime you put on track tires at the OEM level, it should be ready to go.

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[nastang87xx]

Exactly. If one goes into the track sub-forum and does a search, they will find very little complaining about the MT82 overheating. In all reality, with the MT82 having cooling fins I suspect most that encounter occasional overheating would be fine throwing on a scoop similar to the BOSS 302 LS.

The MT82 has been known to hit 300 degrees but you never get a warning about it. Take that for what you will.

 

[nastang87xx]

ok i am a old track whore. i have been racing cars longer then most of the guys of the guys on this forum have been alive. With that said I can tell you with the right driver you can go around a tight track quicker in a Civic then you can in our GT's or the 1LE. For years i had a Honda S2000 as a track car, all she had was 245 h.p. Just for fun i took my modified CTSV with just a tad over 700 h.p., it too me several track sessions to match my lap times that i had in my S2000. Dont worry about which car looks better on paper. Learn all you can with your stock mustang, then add mods that are needed for your type of driving. Trust me even the above avg. driver cant get all the performance the stock GT has to offer.
i watched a 17 year old blond little girl in a stock 1987 nissan sentra kick the butts of many Mustangs, Camaros and 3 series bmw's in a autocross meet. The car is a tool just like the paint brush. it is the artist that makes the painting a master piece.

The fastest non Mod cars in our SCCA Solo chapter by raw time are a 90's MR2, an '87 Civic SI, a C5Z, and a BRZ. All these homies in their 700 RWHP ZR1's, and hossed up M3's just tire smoke their lives away. My raw times in CAM are consistently around the mid/high (by place, not time) range of STR. That means I could potentially be getting bent over by an ND Miata. Actually, I do because our fastest STR driver has...you guessed it.

 

[Hack]

It's crazy when that mindset is allowed to hold absolute priority over performance for option packages specifically pitched as optional performance upgrades. I'm looking directly at the PP1 here.


Norm

PP1 is a step up in performance over the base GT and Ford sells an absolute F-ton of them. I don't see Ford doing anything that doesn't make sense from that standpoint. There's no reason for these mass produced cars to cater to a small portion of the market.

Personally I'd rather have all Mustangs set up to be able to run track events, but I understand it's not good business for Ford to do so.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I disagree, the take rate on the PP1 proves that what most people really wanted was unique wheels/tires, brembo brakes and a torsen rear diff....and most would never see the track. Ford could have never add the extra radiator cooling or suspension upgrades...and most would have still purchased the PP1.

I bet they'd have still had the same take rate if the PP1 wheels and tires had been a bigger step up from the appearance-oriented options. (Absolute base-level is a joke.)

It's been too hard for me to accept a 9"/255 & 9.5"/275 package as a having any real performance intent when the competition was already running on 10"/285 and 11"/285. Like I said before, it took Ford two tries to get the wheel and tire sizing up to the same neighborhood that the competition was already playing in. I'll assume they could have dialed the suspension calibration in at least as well for that as they actually did manage to do for the PP1.


Norm

 

[millhouse]

I bet they'd have still had the same take rate if the PP1 wheels and tires had been a bigger step up from the appearance-oriented options. (Absolute base-level is a joke.)

It's been too hard for me to accept a 9"/255 & 9.5"/275 package as a having any real performance intent when the competition was already running on 10"/285 and 11"/285. Like I said before, it took Ford two tries to get the wheel and tire sizing up to the same neighborhood that the competition was already playing in. I'll assume they could have dialed the suspension calibration in at least as well for that as they actually did manage to do for the PP1.


Norm

Possibly, but it would have either cost the consumer more or eaten into the profit margain. I personally would have paid the extra...assuming they were quality non track oriented summer tires.

Honestly, one only needs to look into posted conserns about slow turn tire chatter on the PP1 to understand who the bulk of buyers are.

 

[Norm Peterson]

PP1 is a step up in performance over the base GT and Ford sells an absolute F-ton of them.

Then maybe that's where the appearance package tires & wheels should be, with the appearance package being where rock-bottom base (for the GT at least) belongs.


Norm

 

[millhouse]

The MT82 has been known to hit 300 degrees but you never get a warning about it. Take that for what you will.

And yet, even with all of the MT82s faults, damage from overheating is an extreme rarity.

 

[nastang87xx]

And yet, even with all of the MT82s faults, damage from overheating is an extreme rarity.

I don't think any TR3160's have been really damaged by heat per say but granted you can't really get to that point either because the car will shut you down. What the real upper limit is on the TR3160...I guess we don't actually know per say. Personally I'd be crapping my pants if I saw any transmission get up to 300 degrees, MT82, TR3160, ZF8, 10R80, TR6070 or otherwise.

 

[martinjlm]

As much as I can't stand the 86, I really do wish ford would push more in that direction... downsizing slightly, light weighting, more advanced suspension geometry, etc.

I think we all know ford has the ability to do great things in terms of performance, the issue is that they don't have the budget to do so, and that's where Jim Hackett is killing us. He's not worried about budgeting performance cars, because when put beside crossovers and trucks, the sales on them are abysmal. I really think a good corporate strategy that could help not only the quality of the cars but also the stock price would be to buy into other brands. That's part of the reason GM is so successful, they have income from every market available. they are also able to utilize platform/parts sharing on a more broad scale which gives them more justification to spend a lot of money on a single car.

Hell, even if Ford would give Lincoln a high dollar RWD Luxury coupe/sedan to combat the M3/M4 and share the platform with the mustang, at least that would give them some justification to spend a bit more money on it

When I was working in Competitor Intelligence at GM we were tracking development of a Ford program to do exactly that. It appeared to be running parallel to the development of the Nano engine program. Then it sort of morphed into some idea of a flexible platform that could deliver both FWD (Ford) and RWD (Lincoln & Mustang) vehicles. Then it suddenly became apparent that the idea of RWD coupes and sedans was being dropped in favor of taking Explorer back to RWD. This was pretty much confirmed when we saw the initial prototypes of Continental. I wonder if there's anybody regretting those moves.

 

[martinjlm]

Fixed it for ya.

GM guys will gloat about all of the extra cooling capacity they have when 99% of them will never see the track and weren't even aware about it when they purchased the car. I'm actually curious if the TR3160 would easily overheat at the track (like the GT350 non TP) because of it's lack of cooling fins. The trans cooler might actually be requirement rather than an "extra".

Interesting point and probably very true. When I bought my car I did know that it had better cooling capacity than Mustangs, though less than SS coupes, since it is a convertible. It wasn't a factor in my buying decision, as I had already decided I was getting an SS convertible. Tracking was an afterthought. I have a friend with a track membership, though, and get to tag along with him on member / guest days. So far my coolers have done the job admirably.

 

[Grintch]

I disagree, the take rate on the PP1 proves that what most people really wanted was unique wheels/tires, brembo brakes and a torsen rear diff....and most would never see the track. Ford could have never add the extra radiator cooling or suspension upgrades...and most would have still purchased the PP1.

Most people have and will never push the PP1 long enough to warrant trans and diff coolers. At $2500, the PP1 for me was a no brainer. Add on a trans and diff cooler and at $3500 to $4000 that price becomes more difficult to swallow...all for something I have no intent on exploiting.

Now for the PP2, I completely agree...anytime you put on track tires at the OEM level, it should be ready to go.

Ummm, you know they are now charging $4000 for the PP1 package right?

A lot of the PP1 faults were forgivable at $2500, but that is less true at $4000. And way less so for a $8500 PP2. As Norm says, at least they finally got a competitive or even superior wheel & tire package, with only 5 years to do it. Too bad they couldn't match the rest of the package. Maybe if Camaro will stay still for another 5 years. But unlikely given an updated car is supposedly due next year.

I WANT the Mustang to be better, but in terms of a 1LE like track package it is not. And if you don't care about the track, well your wasting money buying the PP2 package and the whole PP2 vs 1LE discussion is irrelevant.

 

[millhouse]

Ummm, you know they are now charging $4000 for the PP1 package right?

A lot of the PP1 faults were forgivable at $2500, but that is less true at $4000. And way less so for a $8500 PP2. As Norm says, at least they finally got a competitive or even superior wheel & tire package, with only 5 years to do it. Too bad they couldn't match the rest of the package. Maybe if Camaro will stay still for another 5 years. But unlikely given an updated car is supposedly due next year.

I WANT the Mustang to be better, but in terms of a 1LE like track package it is not. And if you don't care about the track, well your wasting money buying the PP2 package and the whole PP2 vs 1LE discussion is irrelevant.

Haha, I do...and no way in hell would I purchase one at that price-point with virtually no changes that would merit such an increase. At $2500 it was a bargain. At $4000, not so much.

I don't disagree, if I'm buying a car with track tires that was obviously made to compete against the likes of the 1LE...it better damn well perform well at the track without fail. Ford has the ability to eat some costs associated with extra cooling packages as the PP2 is likely to be produced in far lower production numbers and really wouldn't "hurt" their bottom line much. The PP1 however typically had a 30% take rate and is a far different story.

 

[Silver Bullitt]

And if you don't care about the track, well your wasting money buying the PP2 package and the whole PP2 vs 1LE discussion is irrelevant.

See, this is where I disagree. I wanted manual 301A with PP1 and Magneride. For $810 retail (probably more like $750), PP2 offers a fantastic wheel upgrade (I'd be looking at $1,800 to get a set of Velgen's), Recaro seats, a better looking rear spoiler IMO, and additional suspension upgrades. My car will most likely see a track a handful of times in its life and then only for a little fun. I just don't see this $750 investment as a waste of money. And, personally, I could care less how it compares to a 1LE. I drove both. The Mustang put a SEG on my face that wouldn't go away. The Camaro did not. To each their own.

 

[NoVaGT]

.......If im buying one of these cars for track use, it doesnt seem like the fords have much in terms of cooling diffs, engine oil, trans, unless you step up to a shelby....I could ramble on back and forth all day, but wanted to get some thoughts, opinions, insights

A regular Mustang isn't a track car. Never was, and isn't now. They're GTs, Grand Touring cars, not sports cars, not track cars, not drag cars. If you want to go to the track, you buy the right tool for the job, or modify what you have.

This isn't a thing, at all.

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