How obtrusive is safe and smart?

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Because as you come to rely more on it, you gradually teach yourself to get away with being less capable. You aren't "staying as current", which ought to mean something in your industry, but carries over to things as basic as your skill at extreme braking. Trust me on that last.



Neither of us knows how hard the braking would have to be (is it 0.8g? 0.5g where insurance considers the beginning of "extreme braking" for usage-based rating? Less than that?). If it's going to trip at 0.45g and my passenger can see it, there probably will be times where they'd be needlessly reacting (I'm not going to attempt a scenario for this just yet).



Different, but still related. Don't forget that the ABS they're piggybacked on top of still doesn't get everything right.



I'm talking about any and all braking.


Agreed, it shouldn't be. But it's nowhere near the same among individuals, so with that in mind where do you set the threshhold for a HUD warning?


Norm

You're making a LOT of assumptions and you clearly don't understand how the system really works. I really think you should test drive one at least and see what it does and doesn't do before speaking with authority about something you don't know about.

Just because the system helps with braking under extreme circumstances doesn't mean you won't be braking in city driving. As far as currency...please don't make me laugh. I have over 30 low level static line military jumps and staying current and safe is the priority, yet if there was a simple solution to make me and my jumpers safer we would use it (after testing and training). I almost lost a jumper after a jump from an aircraft without some of the modern safety equipment in it (a winchless C-53 during a commemorative D-Day jump at an airshow).
Trust me, I understand staying current probably significantly better than you do. My life depends on it.

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[gamecoc430]

Norm, perhaps if you drove a new Mustang and tried what we're talking about you'd understand better the way these "nannies" work. Probably still won't be anything you'd ever use, and that that's alright. Those of us that use them, like them. But that doesn't make us a worse driver.

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Norm, perhaps if you drove a new Mustang and tried what we're talking about you'd understand better the way these "nannies" work. Probably still won't be anything you'd ever use, and that that's alright. Those of us that use them, like them. But that doesn't make us a worse driver.

Exactly. I'm not suggesting Norm buy a car with it if he doesn't like it. It's ok not to like it or want it.

What's not ok is acting like you know about something when you don't, or suggesting someone is a worse driver because they take advantage of new technology.

 

[MrCincinnati]

Not sure about the system on your mustangs, but the collision system on my charger screams at you then slams on the brakes. The system is also configurable so it can just scream and not brake.

After almost causing a few accidents due to the system unexpectedly braking in what were "programmed" emergency braking situations but not real emergency braking situations I disabled the braking and left the scream on. There are scenarios I've encountered where the algorithm thinks you're about to collide due to current inputs - but doesn't know the next set of inputs you have planned.

In some of Norm's comments these scenarios are valid and I've experienced them (with the charger, not a mustang....). On the highway at speed and the car in front slams on the brakes - the system slams on the brakes. This isn't necessarily the desired reaction. In fact - this reaction can cause a wreck. There's no guarantee the person behind you is following at a safe distance, and it also causes a bit of lag from when you hit the gas to override the auto braking to change lanes and go around what would otherwise be a forward collision.

There have also been false warnings - perhaps the Ford system is perfect. But after 2 or 3 false warnings over 10s of thousands of miles it has become apparent to me that it's much less risky for the computer to tell me what it thinks is going to happen and allow me to react vs react and allow me to counteract.

As for the other systems ACC etc - excellent. I'm assuming my '15 charger is using older tech than the newer stangs so some of these kinks likely do not apply, but - until these systems talk between cars in proximity - having a blanket algorithm make a single car decision without full situational awareness is cause for some concern -- or at minimum caution.

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

Not sure about the system on your mustangs, but the collision system on my charger screams at you then slams on the brakes. The system is also configurable so it can just scream and not brake.

After almost causing a few accidents due to the system unexpectedly braking in what were "programmed" emergency braking situations but not real emergency braking situations I disabled the braking and left the scream on. There are scenarios I've encountered where the algorithm thinks you're about to collide due to current inputs - but doesn't know the next set of inputs you have planned.

In some of Norm's comments these scenarios are valid and I've experienced them (with the charger, not a mustang....). On the highway at speed and the car in front slams on the brakes - the system slams on the brakes. This isn't necessarily the desired reaction. In fact - this reaction can cause a wreck. There's no guarantee the person behind you is following at a safe distance, and it also causes a bit of lag from when you hit the gas to override the auto braking to change lanes and go around what would otherwise be a forward collision.

There have also been false warnings - perhaps the Ford system is perfect. But after 2 or 3 false warnings over 10s of thousands of miles it has become apparent to me that it's much less risky for the computer to tell me what it thinks is going to happen and allow me to react vs react and allow me to counteract.

As for the other systems ACC etc - excellent. I'm assuming my '15 charger is using older tech than the newer stangs so some of these kinks likely do not apply, but - until these systems talk between cars in proximity - having a blanket algorithm make a single car decision without full situational awareness is cause for some concern -- or at minimum caution.

That's a fair assessment, all I can say SO FAR is that is has been perfect. We'll see if that continues or not.

 

[Bullitt]

It does happen from time to time that I need to modulate even some of the heaviest street braking in order to provide a little more room for the guy behind me. I'm not making this up; I will throw a glance in the mirror.


Norm

This is a valid point because the automatic emergency braking systems don't account for what's behind you at all. If the system gets scared, it'll do a full panic stop with complete disregard for the conditions behind you, which could cause an accident where there wouldn't have been one with an intelligent driver doing the braking instead.

OP, I'm glad the system has worked flawlessly for you so far and you're in love with not having to use your pedals while driving on the highway. These systems all do mess up eventually though. It may not be often, but all it takes is one stupid decision by a dumb computer to cause an accident. My wife's 2016 Mercedes has this tech and it randomly freaks out almost once each drive and alerts her when the road is completely clear (we joke that it sees ghosts). Usually it's just mildly annoying, but just a few weeks ago it actually decided to intervene on another completely clear road and slammed the brakes for no reason, causing the person behind her to nearly rear end her.

Another story I read described a windy day where a plastic shopping bag blew onto someone's front bumper causing the car to do a full ABS stop. Thankfully nobody was behind them.

Before you label me a "luddite" as well, I believe these systems will get better eventually and autonomous cars will become the normal way to get around in the future, even if it sounds incredibly depressing and boring to me. But right now, these systems are decent at best and encourage people to pay even less attention to driving because they know the car will "catch them". Half of Americans still don't trust these systems either as shown in this recent study:
https://jalopnik.com/down-from-a-year-ago-only-half-of-drivers-want-semi-au-1822372164

Having full trust in imperfect tech clearly isn't so easy for a large amount of people. But OP, your car looks great (love the stripes) and it's clear you're enjoying the tech since it's new. I hope it continues to be perfect for you.

 

[sbrenskell]

My mom's Acura ILX screams at me when I know I'm not going to hit them (i.e the people in front of me are turning slowly and I don't break but I know I'm not going to hit them.) I have yet to have my mustang scream at me. But I only had my car 4 days before I handed it over to the Ceramic coating guy. And I'm going out of town for a week on the 8th. Then I'm taking a roadtrip to eastern NC mid-March. So I have to get used to this car before then!

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

This is a valid point because the automatic emergency braking systems don't account for what's behind you at all. If the system gets scared, it'll do a full panic stop with complete disregard for the conditions behind you, which could cause an accident where there wouldn't have been one with an intelligent driver doing the braking instead.

OP, I'm glad the system has worked flawlessly for you so far and you're in love with not having to use your pedals while driving on the highway. These systems all do mess up eventually though. It may not be often, but all it takes is one stupid decision by a dumb computer to cause an accident. My wife's 2016 Mercedes has this tech and it randomly freaks out almost once each drive and alerts her when the road is completely clear (we joke that it sees ghosts). Usually it's just mildly annoying, but just a few weeks ago it actually decided to intervene on another completely clear road and slammed the brakes for no reason, causing the person behind her to nearly rear end her.

Another story I read described a windy day where a plastic shopping bag blew onto someone's front bumper causing the car to do a full ABS stop. Thankfully nobody was behind them.

Before you label me a "luddite" as well, I believe these systems will get better eventually and autonomous cars will become the normal way to get around in the future, even if it sounds incredibly depressing and boring to me. But right now, these systems are decent at best and encourage people to pay even less attention to driving because they know the car will "catch them". Half of Americans still don't trust these systems either as shown in this recent study:
https://jalopnik.com/down-from-a-year-ago-only-half-of-drivers-want-semi-au-1822372164

Having full trust in imperfect tech clearly isn't so easy for a large amount of people. But OP, your car looks great (love the stripes) and it's clear you're enjoying the tech since it's new. I hope it continues to be perfect for you.

I'm not the OP, but thanks anyway ;)

I totally see where you're coming from and don't really disagree...FWIW, the points you make are completely different than the points Norm makes.

A few notes on where I'm coming from:
1. When using the ACC, it maintains a constant distance. It's smooth and does not slam on the brakes.
2. The "brake slam" feature only happens when you're about to crash. I get the fear of being rear ended but in the case where it does a full panic stop you're about to rear end someone anyway.

The lesson here is that even with the new tech YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION!
The ACC is GREAT but you better believe I'm still watching traffic ahead of me and behind me. The braking system is cool too, but I hope to never have to use it (aside from the little test I did) and again- if I'm paying attention it should never be engaged.

This boils down to a saying one of my first bosses taught me "trust but verify"

 

[Bullitt]

I'm not the OP, but thanks anyway ;)

I totally see where you're coming from and don't really disagree...FWIW, the points you make are completely different than the points Norm makes.

A few notes on where I'm coming from:
1. When using the ACC, it maintains a constant distance. It's smooth and does not slam on the brakes.
2. The "brake slam" feature only happens when you're about to crash. I get the fear of being rear ended but in the case where it does a full panic stop you're about to rear end someone anyway.

The lesson here is that even with the new tech YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION!
The ACC is GREAT but you better believe I'm still watching traffic ahead of me and behind me. The braking system is cool too, but I hope to never have to use it (aside from the little test I did) and again- if I'm paying attention it should never be engaged.

This boils down to a saying one of my first bosses taught me "trust but verify"

I have no issues with ACC, it's the autonomous braking for "hazards" that I dislike.

The "brake slam" feature is only supposed to happen if you're about to crash. My point is that it is overly sensitive and intervenes when, for example, a car in front is turning off the road and you're not on the brakes because you don't need to be, but the car brakes anyway to "save" you. Or in my wife's case, it intervenes for no reason at all. It's scary when it happens, especially since nobody actually keeps a safe following distance. If it only went off when you were actually about to hit someone then it would be great.

It's good you're being responsible with the tech, but think about this tech getting into the hands of the heavily distracted masses that will use it as a crutch and then cry whenever it fails them (like the guy who's Tesla rear-ended a stopped firetruck at full speed on a highway while in Autopilot last week).

Eventually, it'll be standard on every car and if one car erroneously comes to a full stop, all the automated cars behind it will come to a stop as well. But for the decades long gap until this is adopted 100%, these computers will cause accidents. They'll probably save far more people than they hurt, but they will do harm. I'll be driving my 2019 Bullitt a long time so that I can continue to do my braking myself, but to each their own. I'll practice my "get off my lawn" yell while I'm at it lol.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You're making a LOT of assumptions and you clearly don't understand how the system really works. I really think you should test drive one at least and see what it does and doesn't do before speaking with authority about something you don't know about.

If you can provide the g-level beyond which a HUD warning is thrown, I'll take that much out of the assumptions category and discuss it like a normal question. As to anything else, I have experienced situations where a nanny behaved poorly, another where the calibration was evidently too conservative, and a case where one system failed and took itself offline. That's real-life experience just off the top of my head, not assumption. It's going to take a lot more than can be fit into this thread to convince me that these new nannies/warnings are going to be immune to falsing, failing. or activating too soon. Meanwhile, I'm going to trust my own eyes and experience like I always have.

On edit - whether something is obtrusive/intrusive is going to be an individual thing. Something you wouldn't give a second thought to, I might find very objectionable. And vice versa.

Just because the system helps with braking under extreme circumstances doesn't mean you won't be braking in city driving.

I'm sure that the need for extreme braking happens from time to time even in city driving. It certainly does in more suburban settings, or if your area employs any photographic enforcement of obedience to traffic lights.

As far as currency...please don't make me laugh. I have over 30 low level static line military jumps and staying current and safe is the priority, yet if there was a simple solution to make me and my jumpers safer we would use it (after testing and training). I almost lost a jumper after a jump from an aircraft without some of the modern safety equipment in it (a winchless C-53 during a commemorative D-Day jump at an airshow).
Trust me, I understand staying current probably significantly better than you do. My life depends on it.

Now you're just being insulting because I (intentionally) chose a term I was sure you'd understand. The situations are different, and I'm not trying to minimize yours. But the nature of currency is not. I feel it every time there's been an extended length of time between track days. And I know I've lost a step since I was able to practice on a daily basis the kind of extreme braking you'd really like to be able to go to in an all-out emergency.


Between my last post and this one, I made one hard stop for a red light (55 mph road) and had to move over in my lane because the SUV beside me apparently didn't bother to look the whole time I was there. All in a day's driving, and I didn't give either of them any thought after they'd happened without further incident. Until now, and only because of this thread.


Norm

 

[Matco]

It's good you're being responsible with the tech, but think about this tech getting into the hands of the heavily distracted masses that will use it as a crutch and then cry whenever it fails them (like the guy who's Tesla rear-ended a stopped firetruck at full speed on a highway while in Autopilot last week).

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/car-technology/a15842276/drunk-driver-autopilot-dui/

:cheers::headbonk::doh:

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

If you can provide the g-level beyond which a HUD warning is thrown, I'll take that much out of the assumptions category and discuss it like a normal question. As to anything else, I have experienced situations where a nanny behaved poorly, another where the calibration was evidently too conservative, and a case where one system failed and took itself offline. That's real-life experience just off the top of my head, not assumption. It's going to take a lot more than can be fit into this thread to convince me that these new nannies/warnings are going to be immune to falsing, failing. or activating too soon. Meanwhile, I'm going to trust my own eyes and experience like I always have.



I'm sure that the need for extreme braking happens from time to time even in city driving. It certainly does in more suburban settings, or if your area employs any photographic enforcement of obedience to traffic lights.



Now you're just being insulting because I (intentionally) chose a term I was sure you'd understand. The situations are different, and I'm not trying to minimize yours. But the nature of currency is not. I feel it every time there's been an extended length of time between track days. And I know I've lost a step since I was able to practice on a daily basis the kind of extreme braking you'd like to be able to go to in an all-out emergency.


Between my last post and this one, I made one hard stop for a red light (55 mph road) and had to move over in my lane because the SUV beside me apparently didn't bother to look. All in a day's driving, and I didn't give either of them any thought after they'd happened without further incident until now. Wouldn't have now, except for this thread.


Norm

The g force questions really has nothing to do with the topic.

As far as real world experience- you're 100% right and missing your own point. I have real world experience with the 2018 S&S system. You don't. You shouldn't take my word for it- that would be ridiculous. But you SHOULD go get some of your own experience with Ford's 2018 system before you speak as if you're an expert.

I'm certain there's other people with experience on Ford's 2018 system, perhaps even some with different experiences than my own. You however, are not one of them. I'd encourage you to try it.

Lastly, I'm not being insulting- I'm letting you know I'm not some inexperienced moron, which is apparently who you think you're talking to.

 

[HeavyMetalMonk]

I have no issues with ACC, it's the autonomous braking for "hazards" that I dislike.

The "brake slam" feature is only supposed to happen if you're about to crash. My point is that it is overly sensitive and intervenes when, for example, a car in front is turning off the road and you're not on the brakes because you don't need to be, but the car brakes anyway to "save" you. Or in my wife's case, it intervenes for no reason at all. It's scary when it happens, especially since nobody actually keeps a safe following distance. If it only went off when you were actually about to hit someone then it would be great.

It's good you're being responsible with the tech, but think about this tech getting into the hands of the heavily distracted masses that will use it as a crutch and then cry whenever it fails them (like the guy who's Tesla rear-ended a stopped firetruck at full speed on a highway while in Autopilot last week).

Eventually, it'll be standard on every car and if one car erroneously comes to a full stop, all the automated cars behind it will come to a stop as well. But for the decades long gap until this is adopted 100%, these computers will cause accidents. They'll probably save far more people than they hurt, but they will do harm. I'll be driving my 2019 Bullitt a long time so that I can continue to do my braking myself, but to each their own. I'll practice my "get off my lawn" yell while I'm at it lol.

So far mine hasn't slammed except for one occasion when I wanted to see what would happen, and had my foot hovering over the brake.
If what you describe starts happening on my system I will begin to dislike it and turn it off as well.

You're other points are correct, and definitely have the potential to be a problem.

 

[Norm Peterson]

On the matter of distraction by phone, it won't be the government "over-reaching".

http://www.telematicstalk.com/devel...-inception-program/?eid=284863486&bid=1987379


I subscribe to the Telematics newsletter, and that just showed up.


Norm

 

[MaxHedrm]

If you can provide the g-level beyond which a HUD warning is thrown, I'll take that much out of the assumptions category and discuss it like a normal question.

The HUD warning is thrown based on speed and change in distance between you & the car in front of you. It's a warning, not an indicator of how hard you're braking. Unless you are referring to some sort of calculated Gs based on the deceleration of the car in front of you, which is probably sort of what it does, but for the vast majority of people that would not be a useful adjustment.

I'm sure that the need for extreme braking happens from time to time even in city driving. It certainly does in more suburban settings, or if your area employs any photographic enforcement of obedience to traffic lights.

The emergency braking works at "around town" speeds too, and as you point out, that is where it's most useful. It's the fancy cruise control that would work only above certain speeds.

Between my last post and this one, I made one hard stop for a red light (55 mph road) and had to move over in my lane because the SUV beside me apparently didn't bother to look the whole time I was there. All in a day's driving, and I didn't give either of them any thought after they'd happened without further incident. Until now, and only because of this thread.

Sounds like you have those new fangled red light cameras (complete with shortened yellows to improve revenue) in your area. Otherwise there's no reason you'd have had to stop hard for a red light if you were paying the amount of attention you claim to. & I feel ya on the blind SUV, I'm hoping the Orange helps with that. :doh:

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