Help me decide if this is safe

[rileythemustangguy]

To start, I'll apologize for the pictures, it's rather hard to get good pics of the back seat. Okay, now to begin:

I recently got a pair of Schroth Quick-Fit harnesses for my car, in preparation for summer HPDE and lapping days. The Quick-Fit harnesses of course use the inside factory belt connection point, and an outside bolt in quick-fit connection. The problem I'm struggling with is, I want to run a rear seat delete (leaning towards the SVE one, a GT350R look alike). While I can use the same connection points with the rear seat delete installed, the inside connection point angle changes (see pics). With the seat installed, the inside connection point is further back and near the middle of the car. Without the seat, it's further forward and closer to the outside of the car. In doing a little bit of reading, it's important to keep a certain angle in the straps for safety. Without the seat in, does it look like an unsafe angle?

Yes, I know the smartest thing to do would have been to buy a harness bar and non quick-fit harnesses to run the rear seat delete. But alas, I already have the quick-fit harnesses. If it's safer to keep the rear seat in to maintain the right strap angle, I will keep the seat in rather than running the seat delete, but wanted to gather some thoughts on it to help me decide.

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[NightmareMoon]

Use the child safety restraint bolts farther back (and ideally reinforce those from behind). The angel you have is too steep. Frankly the angle to the child safety restraints are arguably too steep too. You want those belts to be horizontal ideally. Your quick-fit instructions should specify a maximum downward angle.

 

[Flyhalf]

When i had it..
I did a seat delete with some tissue and a plywood. You need to remove the seat or make a hole to have a clear angle. Alsomyou dont want a rear seat floating in case of accident. Hope it helps

 

[Brian@BMVK]

The quickfit is designed for the usage of rear seats and the resulting angles. It is an ASM harness so while not ideal, it is approved by many racing orgs as a 4 point for the cars it is made for only.

 

[Vettel-ish]

How many events are you thinking of doing? Are you required to run a harness? Are you using a Hans?

Based on these I would sell those and buy a cage and harness. However its like 2k so I get it. Not sure I would run a harness bar. They seems unsafe in the event of a roll over.

 

[rileythemustangguy]

How many events are you thinking of doing? Are you required to run a harness? Are you using a Hans?

Based on these I would sell those and buy a cage and harness. However its like 2k so I get it. Not sure I would run a harness bar. They seems unsafe in the event of a roll over.

Hey Andy, I'm hoping to make it a monthly or bi-weekly thing for myself, depending on how much I enjoy it (from what I hear I'll be addicted pretty quickly). I don't believe they're required, but boy they sure feel like they suck me into the seat, which I think will be great compared to the oem 3 points - even on the road I feel like I slide all over.

The car is my daily (kinda, I work from home), so I'm hesitant to put in a cage system. Interesting point on the harness bar, I'll have to read up about that. I'm guessing it's not as strong as a cage and could snap and impale my neck in the event of a crash?

It sounds like the safest thing to do it just keep the rear seat in to maintain angles and specs that these harnesses were built for, and I'll just be mildly annoyed that I can't spend my money on a rear seat delete. I did read through the Schroth instructions and it specifically said not to use the LATCH bolt points, as they aren't designed or built to hold the weight of an adult, which makes sense.

Eventually, maybe I'll shoot for a cage and real harness, if I really get the track bug.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Hey Andy, I'm hoping to make it a monthly or bi-weekly thing for myself, depending on how much I enjoy it (from what I hear I'll be addicted pretty quickly). I don't believe they're required, but boy they sure feel like they suck me into the seat, which I think will be great compared to the oem 3 points - even on the road I feel like I slide all over.

You could perhaps put together a supplemental belt that doesn't relax its position. Looping that over the OEM 3-point belt tends to keep it from relaxing as much.

The towel is only there for contrast. This has passed tech at track days put on by a number of different organizations.

Another suggestion is to learn to relax any muscles that aren't actually making a control input (tense muscles can lift some of your weight off of the seat cushion, where you want it to stay). Just sit there as much like a sack of cement as you can.


Norm

 

[Vettel-ish]

Hey Andy, I'm hoping to make it a monthly or bi-weekly thing for myself, depending on how much I enjoy it (from what I hear I'll be addicted pretty quickly). I don't believe they're required, but boy they sure feel like they suck me into the seat, which I think will be great compared to the oem 3 points - even on the road I feel like I slide all over.

The car is my daily (kinda, I work from home), so I'm hesitant to put in a cage system. Interesting point on the harness bar, I'll have to read up about that. I'm guessing it's not as strong as a cage and could snap and impale my neck in the event of a crash?

It sounds like the safest thing to do it just keep the rear seat in to maintain angles and specs that these harnesses were built for, and I'll just be mildly annoyed that I can't spend my money on a rear seat delete. I did read through the Schroth instructions and it specifically said not to use the LATCH bolt points, as they aren't designed or built to hold the weight of an adult, which makes sense.

Eventually, maybe I'll shoot for a cage and real harness, if I really get the track bug.

O yeah the track bug bites very hard. I bought my car for sundays and cars and coffee. 18 months later it does not leave the garage unless its going to a track. Just no point lol

Here is my advice then. If you are not required to have a cage or harness wait till next year. I do agree that the seats are not helping us (i have the same non recaro seats) However I have done 4 events and 9 more coming this year and I dont see that as an issue. Sure it would be cool but not necessary. Take what you brought and run it. Over the course of the year you might make some changes and add some things to the car to make you feel more confident and conformable. We are never "racing" its about building race craft and just having a damn good time. Brakes. Tires. Suspension first...they touch the road and matter most. New sticky tires will changed your life..and hell by not getting a harness your core will be super strong by winter lol.

 

[Plimmer]

I’ m using the child latch bolts for mine. Not sure if it’s safe, but those bolts are the same size as the bolts used for the OEM belts and to hold the seats to the body.

 

[rileythemustangguy]

I’ m using the child latch bolts for mine. Not sure if it’s safe, but those bolts are the same size as the bolts used for the OEM belts and to hold the seats to the body.

Just an FYI, I went back and read the install instructions again after a few suggestions and the manual explicitly says that the LATCH bolts aren't rated for the level of force that an adult in a crash generates. Ultimately up to you, but I thought I'd pass along the info.

 

[Plimmer]

Just an FYI, I went back and read the install instructions again after a few suggestions and the manual explicitly says that the LATCH bolts aren't rated for the level of force that an adult in a crash generates. Ultimately up to you, but I thought I'd pass along the info.

Yeah, thanks for checking. I searched the net and couldn’t find the recommended bolt size for seat belts other than it should be grade 8 or better. Since the same size bolt is used in the OEM seat belts, I figured that be ok for my 6 point harness as well. Hopefully I never have to find out.

 

[mustanghammer]

Its not the size of the bolts that determine how secure a mounting location is. It is the area of the car that the bolt is threaded into. What does a child weigh in a child safety seat vs an adult human being secured by the seat belts? How do you know the mounting location for the child seat is the same as the 3 point belt?

I have done a far amount of cage work on street cars. OE seat belt mounting locations are pretty stout with multiple layers of steel surrounding the bolt hole. This is true on cars from the 70-80s and more so today.

But it is really more than that. What you and the OP are attempting to do is unsafe. The shoulder harness angle is wrong and could cause a severe back injury in hard crash. Also you should never run fixed shoulder harness belts in a car that doesn't have a roll bar. When the roof comes down in a rollover sitting bolt upright because of the harness is not where you want to find yourself. I don't even like to see this in an autox let alone on a race track.

The best and safest way to keep you behind the wheel in a car without a roll bar is racing lap belt used in conjunction with the factory 3 point belt. A lap belt will not interfere with the OE safety systems and will keep you connected to the car. If you don't want to do that, get a CG Loc. They allow you to tighten and lock the lower portion of the 3pt factory belt.

 

[rileythemustangguy]

Hey hey now, I ASKED if a possible installation method was unsafe, and when informed it was I made it known I would install per the instructions, which I'd go out on a limb and say if a pretty safe was to install and run. I can't imagine Schorth would sell these harnesses and they would be approved if they were unsafe and liable to cause bodily damage in a wreck. This specific one is DOT approved and is approved my racing orgs.

 

[mustanghammer]

Please.....its an aftermarket performance part that probably comes with a disclaimer that says "Racing is dangerous and Schroth.inc assumes no liability............yada yada yada" I mean companies make all kinds of stuff like harness bars that aren't safe in a hard crash.

Keep this car in mind when you are using your harness with no roll bar........

This S197 flipped on its roof at the road course at Hallet OK. The two black things poking up from the bottom of the car are the roll bar feet.

This car had a roll bar. Was it properly installed? Was it Installed to the specifications of the roll bar manufacturer?

If I routed my belts like that in my race car an SCCA Tech inspector would not sign off on my annual inspection for the reason I stated.

 

[TopJimmyCooks]

I think Mustanghammer has some great advice. I'll add my $.02.

When I started shopping harnesses, I received differing opinions. In the end, I divined that enough people advised me against a harness / harness bar combo that it would be best to: 1) get the half-cage and harnesses, or 2) keep the OEM belts. Two vendors said that they would not sell me a harness if I didn't have a cage, and my mechanic said that he would not sign off my tech sheets if I had a harness with a harness bar. The origin of this process was that I wanted seats that would keep me in place. The fancy leather heated cooled seats did not.

I went with option 1. Having lived with that now for a while, I can say that I'm very glad I have the seats when on track. Makes a huge difference. My advice to someone looking at harnesses is to visualize how you will use them on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Example: I find that I drive the car a little less frequently for short jaunts because it's a PIA to get in and out. And looking over your shoulder? Forget about it. Short arms? Don't adjust that dial. Having the OEM belt would be so much easier. I do still have the OEM belt but it won't pull tightly enough across my lap with the Sparco seats to make me feel safe. So I just zip-tied them back to avoid buckles banging around. Another consideration is what you do when you are using the harnesses. The event organizer will require that you and any passenger wear a HANS device. They typically require that whatever a driver does, the passenger needs to also. So have an extra HANS with you if necessary and you'll need to make sure that your passenger's helmet will connect. HANS increase safety but are not particularly comfortable. Buy the gel pads with it. You'll also want to figure out how to disable the seat belt chime or get a TIKIT: https://thetikit.com/

Hope that helps, good luck.

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