GT500 vs ZLE

[bluebeastsrt]

I mean this sh!t is literally the magazine racer mantra. Ignore

The This argument isn't about who's faster, it's about who has more off the line traction. It's a dumb argument, as if I were planning on lining the GT500 up against anyone, I'd quickly throw a set of drag radials on a be done with it.

Jesus I hate your blue font, can't read it for shit on the dark theme.

Again someone who doesn't understand the scientific method. If you take 30 measurements of 1 thing (a GT500 1/4 mile time) and take 30 measurements of another thing (a ZL! 1LE 1/4 mile time) and use the same instrument for both tests, the numbers are comparable. Done. Finito. End of story. Even if the numbers read 1% higher than another test using a different tool, the fact that the process and procedure for testing remains the same makes the comparison legitimate. Now if the machine is so wildly out of calibration that it's measurement is unreliable, then of course you can't use it. That's not the case here at all. These aren't being measured via i-phones in cupholders and free apps, these are V-box dataloggers that are the industry standard for acquiring data.

The repetition of the process eliminates anomalies, and the consistency of the method guarantees comparability.

So your going with v boxes and cell phones as your preferred methods of data gathering over a time slip? ok......no need to continue this conversation.
And don’t worry about the blue font. I just put you on ignore and won’t be replying to these types of posts in the future.

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[millhouse]

Car and Driver has access to Chrysler's proving grounds in Michigan and this is where a majority of their testing is done and it's been that way for a very long time. This is not the same as renting out a track like Milan for testing. Other magazines do things differently. Motorweek for example has often used (and you can find video proof of this all over) a dragstrip for their acceleration, braking and even slalom testing going back into the 80's. Just different processes for different folks.

Let's look at your original quote...

They have private test facilities within which to run their instrumented tests so the only outlay is time. If they were to go to a dragstrip for every test they'd have the same amount of time, but would have to pay to rent the track out

They rent the proving grounds. It's no different. It's a rental. It would be no more of a burden.

0-60mph times aren't really relevant when you're talking about 600+hp cars as they're only indicative of initial off the line performance which is severly limited with street tires on an unprepped surface. The C7 Corvette Z06 and the C7 ZR1 were nearly identical in 0-60mph time as they were severely traction limited to that point. Beyond that the new 495 hp C8 out accelerates the ZR1 due to improved traction but loses massively at the strip.

Oh, I agree. Think about it though....they used to be relevant but have been a function of only traction. In a similar fasion...with these higher horsepower cars, the 1/4 mile (on the street) has quickly become just about as irrelevant.

I am with you on that one, I didn't say the entire article was gospel, it was more about the process they use to ensure scientifically repeatable results.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the scientific method. I would like to point out though some variables that they fail to account for....most specifically, what happens when you run ultimate summer tires (SC2 type tires) on cold vs hot asphalt. They are able to do correction factors for DA, but you can't correct for traction. Anyone that has driven summer tires on sub 40 degree pavement knows what I'm talking about here.

In the end, those corrected 1/4 mile times are a data point...not indicative of what these cars will run in real life...where it's legal.

 

[millhouse]

Too bad there's not a way to measure EFFECTIVE wheel horsepower

If you're talking off the line, it's instantaneous torque your after....at the rear wheels.

 

[ZRacerLE]

If you're talking off the line, it's instantaneous torque your after....at the rear wheels.

Yep, that's right

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Jesus I hate your blue font, can't read it for shit on the dark theme.

Yeah, I hate when people don't use the default font ...

 

[millhouse]

Yeah, I hate when people don't use the default font ...

Heck yeah.

 

[V00D00]

This isn't NHRA digest, it's Car and Driver and 99% of the mileage these cars run will be on the street. Going to a strip has never been a part of vehicle comparisons. Even in tests where they do go to a prepped drag strip (think Demon launch or something) they still mention the real world numbers.

The equipment is a one-time purchase for them and the man-hours are part of their regular process of doing their job. They have private test facilities within which to run their instrumented tests so the only outlay is time. If they were to go to a dragstrip for every test they'd have the same amount of time, but would have to pay to rent the track out and their numbers wouldn't be indicative of what the cars run on the street. Remember that these stats are going into a list of performance figures that will be compared against all of the past cars they've tested to so there's something to say for continuing to test the cars the way they always have.

Besides, you should know as well as anyone that even a good track can have good and bad days for prep. An un-prepped surface is actually more scientifically repeatable than a prepped surface where slight changes in the VHT, the amount of rubber on the track, and how it was prepped can effect how the track hooks.

Let me say it simpler for you. Magazine tests aren't out to get hero runs, they left that to the Muscle Mustangs or whatever and they're all dead and gone now. They test every car from the newest minivan to the latest supercar in the same area in teh same manner so that the results are scientifically repeatable.

Here's an article from Motor Trend in 2018 describing the exact process they use to ensure repeatable accurate results.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/

thats a lot of text, heres a simple one. SHOW A SLIP!

You did not just say......using inaccurate tools to measure something is science? You thought process is fubar! A dyno won’t even give you a repeatable run. On the same vehicle back to back. And running around someone’s neighborhood hood just tells people your an idiot. Not a scientist. You have to remove as many random variables as possible for it to be science. Not the opposite.

See what we are dealing with. high lievel trolls, or retards.. very fine line..

If you're asking simple questions, you sure have a difficult time with 'simple answers'. What you fail to realize... is the GT3RS comes with 2 sets of tires... and the speed differential is similar to a Standard ZL1 to ZL1 1LE or a standard GT500 vs. a CFTP car. I try to honestly give you credit, and answer your questions honestly... but you only 'like' what seems 'positive' for Ford... and not the 'entire truth'.

I race these cars... I'm not biased... I like Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Porsche, BMW etc... Some cars have pros and cons... a $125K ZR1 can beat a $250K Porsche... doesn't mean it's the better car.

If you take the 'best tire' available for each car... the GT3RS beats both the 3RS and the CFTP car... which will be 'reinforced' when Magazines test the GT500 more. If you run the 'slower' tire on the 3RS (like the Pobst video earlier) and the 'faster tire' on the ZLE & CFTP car, the Camaro or Mustang can win IMO.

Ok... it is what it is... I've tried to answer your questions... for better or worse.

Dave

how about a simple answer, on the same tires as tested head to head, would the zle place 1st 2nd or last? we know already, since you want to ignore answering tht, but its a lot of fun provoking you

simple answers please

Your post is full of contradictions.

They rent out tracks for their comparisons already. They rent out the facilities to do their "instrumented" 1/4 mile runs. Renting out a drag-strip would be no different. They don't own any of their testing facilities.

1/4 mile times are a measure of a vehicles performance that is illegal to use on the street. It gives us an idea of what it's legally capable of only by using its 1/4 mile mph.

Also, I'm going to point out a big B.S. point to that article you posted. They claim that street tires hook up better on the street than on a prepped dragstrip.

"And believe it or not, street tires actually do not hook up well on the race-prepped surface and lose traction more easily than on plain old pavement."

because they are there to sell magazines or get views, no different than youtubers and clickbait.. they are not there to extract the absolute peak possible performance from a vehicle

Which tire is on the 3RS as delivered to the dealer? Not changed out by the dealer but delivered. Whatever tire that is should be tested, end of story.

just go with the only known head to head of a gt500 and gt3rs.. i thought the question was simple and direct.. the gymnastics to avoid answering it are wonderfully entertaining

This whole thing is a dumb argument and is bench racing at it's worst.

says teh guy trying to extrapolate 1/4 mile times from the cheapest possible technology..

heres a thought.. go to a dragstrip, GET A SLIP

Too bad there's not a way to measure EFFECTIVE wheel horsepower

OR true 1/4 mile times..

He is tired of pedaling so his parents bought him his first shiny new car.

the rumors are true, you GM kids do always have penis' and daddy issue's on the mind at any random point of the day huh..

 

[waterman]

But you can buy the MultiMatic suspension from GM for the Camaro aftermarket.

I stand corrected. My apologies.

What I was implying was that one can purchase (aftermarket) DSSV dampers from Multimatic or their manufacturer, if MM has done the software, dyno and fabrication for car models that they have previously fitted.

Like Ford GT, Camaro, Mercedes-AMG-GT, Aston Martin One-77 and RUF CTR3 to name just a few.

 

[ZRacerLE]

thats a lot of text, heres a simple one. SHOW A SLIP!



See what we are dealing with. high lievel trolls, or retards.. very fine line..




how about a simple answer, on the same tires as tested head to head, would the zle place 1st 2nd or last? we know already, since you want to ignore answering tht, but its a lot of fun provoking you

simple answers please



because they are there to sell magazines or get views, no different than youtubers and clickbait.. they are not there to extract the absolute peak possible performance from a vehicle



just go with the only known head to head of a gt500 and gt3rs.. i thought the question was simple and direct.. the gymnastics to avoid answering it are wonderfully entertaining



says teh guy trying to extrapolate 1/4 mile times from the cheapest possible technology..

heres a thought.. go to a dragstrip, GET A SLIP

OR true 1/4 mile times..



the rumors are true, you GM kids do always have penis' and daddy issue's on the mind at any random point of the day huh..

Voodoo, you should join the road race crowd. You get to drag race out of every single turn for 25 minutes straight.

 

[mavisky]

I give up @V00D00 , apparently I wrote too many words here to explain why a time slip doesn't exist for you to comprehend and at this point I'm thoroughly convinced you don't even understand the argument at hand so let me recap this for you.

9secondko said that the magazine people must be shit drivers because speed phenom posted a better 1/4 e.t. than they did in their test.

I corrected him in that you can't compare prepped track times from a private owner to an unprepped surface time from a magazine test to determine if they're good drivers or not.

You then asked why we should even accept "a street dragstip run" as a data point and across the last 10 posts I've attempted to explain why magazines don't test street cars on prepped drag strips.

You seem completely unwilling to understand that they don't test on prepped surfaces due to the massive advantage it gives otherwise traction limited cars and are now just angrily typing "show the slip" like it means anything at all. We all know high horsepower traction limited cars are faster on the on a stickier surface. We know the margin is wider between the Shelby and the ZL1 on the track than it is on the street.

Finally, independently tested Vbox within 0.02 seconds and 0.1 mph on multiple runs tested against the actual 1/4 mile timing lights. Sure seems accurate enough to me for comaprison sake.

 

[mavisky]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the scientific method. I would like to point out though some variables that they fail to account for....most specifically, what happens when you run ultimate summer tires (SC2 type tires) on cold vs hot asphalt. They are able to do correction factors for DA, but you can't correct for traction. Anyone that has driven summer tires on sub 40 degree pavement knows what I'm talking about here.

In the end, those corrected 1/4 mile times are a data point...not indicative of what these cars will run in real life...where it's legal.

This holds true for any test and why it's not fair to compare across multiple tests performed in different conditions. Yes it helps some, but it can't account for all variables. However in a situation like the test here where both cars being tested in the same conditions, that variable is now a constant between those two. In science you need to eliminate as many variables as possible to have a successful test. In this case it's same conditions, same day, same surface, same driver, and the variables are the cars and how they're delivered/configured by their manufacturers. That means that the test is a valid "comparison" while it may not represent the ultimate maximum potential of either vehicle under perfect conditions.

 

[roygriffin2020]

I stand corrected. My apologies.

What I was implying was that one can purchase (aftermarket) DSSV dampers from Multimatic or their manufacturer, if MM has done the software, dyno and fabrication for car models that they have previously fitted.

Like Ford GT, Camaro, Mercedes-AMG-GT, Aston Martin One-77 and RUF CTR3 to name just a few.

My apologies was not to correct you(more FYI), but to say....But, but, it is the only place I have found like you say that MM can be purchased.

 

[9secondko]

Thanks for proving my point.

Your’e Welcome. The GT3 RS and the GT500 are both better than the ZL1 1LE.

Not anything

Need a chevy factory driver to make it fair I'd say.

I understand where you are coming from, but as an unbiased person, I just find it hard to believe that Randy is only biased against Ford or biased at all.

Suspension engineer as driver works for me. Just so long as it’s all recorded.

and it’s easy to believe about Randy.
I always liked the guy. His skills, personality, seeming professionalism.

but then I started to notice when her gloss over a cars weakness in his commentary but point out weaknesses in others that didn’t seem to jive with reality.

Then I noticed his driving videos. The cars he was glowing about, her drive like he stole it. You could see the intensity and concentration mixer with a little fear in his face. He could barely provide commentary. Then with others, he was so lax, as talkative as a singing canary.

and his times didn’t go with the specs or what real-world racers were getting.

It’s hard to see a “pro” with bias when it shouldn’t be there. But it’s there.

Heck, if the people running our country are so rife with bias as to make stuff up, I can easily see a race car driver doing it much more readily.

 

[mavisky]

Yeah, I hate when people don't use the default font ...

You can't tell me this is easy to read. Literally any other color but a matching dark gray would be easier.

 

[9secondko]

GPS tools have a resolution problem. Even small error bars yield "huge" differences in so-called results. I'll repeat what I said some time back (this thread?) who cares about 0.2 second, hell 0.5 seconds one way or the other? Is it really a factor in your choice to spend money on one car vs another?

.5 seconds is an eternity in drag racing.

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