GT350 vs Hellcat: different class or competitors?

[Caballus]

Entirely untrue. It sets the standards for keyboard racing and is a decent bench mark, but nothing more. There is no sanctioned racing body that subjects the cars to tech inspection and thus the times are subject to scrutiny. There are plenty of ring "ringers" sent by OEMs for bragging rights, so unless the times are done via 3rd party testing with the same skilled driver and on the same day, its not a real comparison.

What standard should be used to evaluate track performance, KRT? Pure opinion? Similarly, what standard should be used for 1/4 mile times, and what do they tell us? Also, is there a difference between a track like the Ring and LS? Finally, what of a car that registers 1+G on the skid pad? Does that say anything about that car's track ability? If not, do any numbers matter other than HP and torque?
My point has been, and remains, that the Hellcat is not simply a straight line racer. It is a spirited all around performance car straight off the assembly line. It performs well on the track and strip...and can hold it's own (if not totally outrun) any other American production car on the Autobahn.

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[73MachI]

Hate when I'm talking smack and the evidence disappears! Actually saw the missing reference myself, which is part of what made me ask the question that started this thread. I'll dig...in the meantime, below is a 8:09 run on the ring...you'll get a laugh out of it, I'm sure...no--it's not real...

Oh that Barney Rubble! What an actor.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Cant really find any ring times. I did find this. A Subieyota BRZ is a car for spirited driving also. Ahhhh I think you get the point! Not a lot of competition for a car like the GT350 or the Z28 on a race track.

[ame]

 

[Taneras]

Finally, what of a car that registers 1+G on the skid pad?

Where does this number come from? C/D and MT had the Hellcat rated at .92g and .94g on the skidpad respectively. The same car mags had the GT PP at .95g and .96g and had the GT350 at .98g and 1g.

Based on skid pad alone it would seem Dodge should be comparing the Hellcat's handling abilities to the GT or GT PP and not the GT350.

Does that say anything about that car's track ability?

Yes, it says a little bit about it but not as much as you seem to think. Skidpad numbers almost exclusively test weight and tire quality. While those are super important variables to account for, brake quality, weight distribution, and suspension to my knowledge play no significant role in skidpad numbers.

If not, do any numbers matter other than HP and torque?

I think slalom numbers are a step up from skidpad numbers. I think it tests everything but braking. I'm not aware of slalom numbers for the GT350 or the Hellcat but I haven't gone out of my way to look for them.

I actually don't mind track time comparisons so long as its done right. It's tough for me to trust company verified times, I tend to put more weight into independent comparisons - although those could be biased as well.

My point has been, and remains, that the Hellcat is not simply a straight line racer. It is a spirited all around performance car straight off the assembly line. It performs well on the track and strip...and can hold it's own (if not totally outrun) any other American production car on the Autobahn.

You've asked us to quantify what makes a great track car but haven't given your own criteria on what makes a great track car. Why do you think the Hellcat is a great track car?

 

[Taneras]

Cant really find any ring times. I did find this. A Subieyota BRZ is a car for spirited driving also. Ahhhh I think you get the point! Not a lot of competition for a car like the GT350 or the Z28 on a race track.

For those who don't feel like watching the entire thing, the GT beat the Hellcat by a second (1:44.8 vs 1:45.8) using the same day/track/driver. No GT350 tested but obviously the gap would increase.

 

[Caballus]

For those who don't feel like watching the entire thing, the GT beat the Hellcat by a second (1:44.8 vs 1:45.8) using the same day/track/driver. No GT350 tested but obviously the gap would increase.

Something you can do in a minute and a half counts as a track?...cool.

 

[Taneras]

Something you can do in a minute and a half counts as a track?...cool.

Absolutely. Willow Springs is a very popular track and is probably a tad smaller than this track.

Extrapolating that second in a minute and a half becomes two seconds on a three minute track, three seconds on a four and a half minute track, etc.

Obviously its not that simple as that as each track is different and car A might outlap car B on one track but opposite be true on a different track. But your attempt to dismiss this comparison at face value doesn't work because the trend of being out performed would only grow if you extended this race into multiple laps or a larger track that's similar to this one. Maybe the Hellcat would match or beat the GT on a different track, but don't expect drastically different results. This should show that the Hellcat isn't in the GT350's class and Dodge's comparison is nothing more than a marketing tool.

That's not to say that the Hellcat doesn't do well at the track. Well is subjective so I guess on some scale you could say that it does actually preform well. But its not in the same class as the GT350, at least nothing I've seen so far even remotely suggests that this is the case.

 

[Caballus]

Sorry--I don't know how to break up the responses into blocks...will work on that:

1. Where does the skidpad number come from? From my buddy's Nürburgring runs--mentioned in one of the first posts. I have pictures like the one of the speedometer, but have to dig them out. I went back and looked and realized I wrote 1.2; should be 1.02--bit of a difference, sorry.

2. Agree with your point about non-verified times. However, when not talking in extremes, they are still useful indicators.

3. I never said the Hellcat is a great track car. I don't believe it is. There is an overwhelming theme within this thread that argues that the HC is only a straight line muscle car and nothing else. My point has been, and remains, that the Hellcat is not simply a straight line racer. It is a spirited all around performance car straight off the assembly line. It performs well on the track and strip...and can hold it's own (if not totally outrun) any other American production car on the Autobahn. I based that off a combination of personal experience and (non-verified) statistics on both cars.

I enjoy this forum because of the vast experience in it. I started this thread to share some of my own, even if vicariously collected--see post #1.

I am fortunate enough to live in an environment where I (and my buddies) can enjoy cars in a different way than we can back home in the States. We also enjoy sharing that experience. Example: I live about 10 minutes from one of the best strips of unrestricted highway in the world, and I base that subjective statement on having personally driven in just about every country in Europe--yeah, that includes less common places like Albania and BiH. 10 minutes from now, I can be driving at the max speed that whatever car I'm driving can produce--and I can handle. And it's 100% legal. In fact, I'll be doing it tomorrow when I go to France. We can also easily access tracks like Nurburgring and Hockenheim. By the way, LeMans is only a few hours away and has a Mustang day. So, the combo of stats and experience still only amounts to opinion and is worthy of challenging, but it's certainly credible opinion.

Looking forward to more (non-spitting) debate and experience sharing...

 

[Caballus]

Absolutely. Willow Springs is a very popular track and is probably a tad smaller than this track.

Extrapolating that second in a minute and a half becomes two seconds on a three minute track, three seconds on a four and a half minute track, etc.

Obviously its not that simple as that as each track is different and car A might outlap car B on one track but opposite be true on a different track. But your attempt to dismiss this comparison at face value doesn't work because the trend of being out performed would only grow if you extended this race into multiple laps or a larger track that's similar to this one. Maybe the Hellcat would match or beat the GT on a different track, but don't expect drastically different results. This should show that the Hellcat isn't in the GT350's class and Dodge's comparison is nothing more than a marketing tool.

That's not to say that the Hellcat doesn't do well at the track. Well is subjective so I guess on some scale you could say that it does actually preform well. But its not in the same class as the GT350, at least nothing I've seen so far even remotely suggests that this is the case.

Your point is well taken, and I was being a little facetious. I would be sorely disappointed if the Hellcat outperformed the GT350 on ANY track, particularly since mine was finally built yesterday and is already paid in full. No turning back!

 

[Todd15Fastback]

Something you can do in a minute and a half counts as a track?...cool.

:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

 

[Trackaholic]

The Hellcat is a great all around car, but is most at home on the open road and drag strip.

The GT350 is also a great all around car, but is most at home on a road course.

Are they in the same class? It would depend on what you are looking for in a vehicle. For me, the GT350 and Hellcat are in totally different classes, and while I wouldn't mind driving the Hellcat it isn't a car I'd want to own (now a Viper on the other hand....).

It is also possible for cars to have similar performance numbers but be very different in feel once you are behind the wheel. Being happy with a vehicle often means choosing the one that provides the driving experience you are looking for, even if the numbers aren't as good as other vehicles out there.

-T

 

[Caballus]

The Hellcat is a great all around car, but is most at home on the open road and drag strip.

The GT350 is also a great all around car, but is most at home on a road course.

Are they in the same class? It would depend on what you are looking for in a vehicle. For me, the GT350 and Hellcat are in totally different classes, and while I wouldn't mind driving the Hellcat it isn't a car I'd want to own (now a Viper on the other hand....).

It is also possible for cars to have similar performance numbers but be very different in feel once you are behind the wheel. Being happy with a vehicle often means choosing the one that provides the driving experience you are looking for, even if the numbers aren't as good as other vehicles out there.

-T

You just replaced Spiderman as my new hero!

 

[Taneras]

1. Where does the skidpad number come from? From my buddy's Nürburgring runs--mentioned in one of the first posts. I have pictures like the one of the speedometer, but have to dig them out. I went back and looked and realized I wrote 1.2; should be 1.02--bit of a difference, sorry.

If your buddy isn't running stock tires its not an apples to apples comparison. If the tires are stock, what instrument did he use to gather this measurement? I ask not to be nit picky but only because its drastically different from what car magazines are reporting.

3. I never said the Hellcat is a great track car. I don't believe it is. There is an overwhelming theme within this thread that argues that the HC is only a straight line muscle car and nothing else. My point has been, and remains, that the Hellcat is not simply a straight line racer. It is a spirited all around performance car straight off the assembly line. It performs well on the track and strip...and can hold it's own (if not totally outrun) any other American production car on the Autobahn. I based that off a combination of personal experience and (non-verified) statistics on both cars.

To be fair you seemed to have received most of the push back when you suggested that the Hellcat and the GT350 were comparable because of what you saw on Dodge's website. If its true that the Hellcat and the GT-PP are on par, I don't see how the Hellcat and GT350 are comparable, especially company to company, as its closer to a different Ford product (the GT).

As far as preforming well at the track goes, performing well is a very subjective measurement. What constitutes performing well? At this point it's down to opinion. Unless your having sex with me, signing my paychecks, or I fathered you I really don't care too much about your opinion (not you specifically, just the world in general). No disrespect of course

 

[Caballus]

If your buddy isn't running stock tires its not an apples to apples comparison. If the tires are stock, what instrument did he use to gather this measurement? I ask not to be nit picky but only because its drastically different from what car magazines are reporting.



To be fair you seemed to have received most of the push back when you suggested that the Hellcat and the GT350 were comparable because of what you saw on Dodge's website. If its true that the Hellcat and the GT-PP are on par, I don't see how the Hellcat and GT350 are comparable, especially company to company, as its closer to a different Ford product (the GT).

As far as preforming well at the track goes, performing well is a very subjective measurement. What constitutes performing well? At this point it's down to opinion. Unless your having sex with me, signing my checks, or I fathered you I really don't care too much about your opinion (not you specifically, just the world in general). No disrespect of course

- Stock tires. The car's instrument is built in and can be assumed accurate, just as the tach and speedometer have to be assumed accurate.

- Pushback started on reply #1 and the emotion remained peppered throughout. Not the least bit offended. It's part of the entertaining conversation. Unfortunate that we're not all in a bar enjoying beer as we have it. I honestly didn't have a strong opinion on whether they were comparable when I posed the question, and agree most with Trackaholic (the Spiderman replacement). I'm honestly impressed that the thread got this much traction, though it's due in part to the fact that most people seem to only read the last post or two, which leads to repetition and uninformed assertions. No big deal. It's like sitting around talking and someone new joins the conversation.

- No offense taken, though I am somewhat put off by that part and not sure why you said it that way. No impact on me, nonetheless...

 

[Taneras]

- Stock tires. The car's instrument is built in and can be assumed accurate, just as the tach and speedometer have to be assumed accurate.

Assumed accurate until you start getting drastically different readings. Again, .92/.94 from car mags to the 1.02g from your friend. Something's not right there.

Pushback started on reply #1

And fairness started at reply #2, who corrected reply #1. The most thanked comment was a pro-Hellcat post. Half of the first 10 replies were pro-Hellcat and had well over a dozen thanks shared between them. I'm not going to defend every post here but I don't think it was too bad, especially considering this is a mustang forum.

No offense taken, though I am somewhat put off by that part and not sure why you said it that way. No impact on me, nonetheless...

Just a funny way of saying that the only people's opinion I care about are my wife, my kids, and my boss (for obvious reasons assuming you have a boss, wife, kids, or any combination of them).

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