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FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

GreenS550

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I've had 4 coyote powered mustangs. I have drag raced, blown, etc and none used any oil between oil changes. None. Gen 1,2,3. Further oil at 5k miles always with synthetic. 5/30 except the supercharged ones where 5/50 Motorcraft was recommended by Whipple.
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Elp_jc

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My opinion on the loss or drop in cylinder pressure is due to improper ring break-in and the use of Full synthetic oil before the rings achieve over 80% seal.
And how exactly do you know that? I agree factory oil shouldn't be changed too early, but like Dfeeds said, many engines come with full synthetic oils from the factory (reportedly including the GT350), so it shouldn't really matter IMO. I changed mine at 1,128 miles on the Bullitt, and right at 4K miles, it hasn't consumed any, and I don't have a catch can (but replaced the PCV valve early on).
 

GreenS550

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I know on some engines they do not recommend synthetic oil too soon. I don't know about the coyote. When engines are rebuilt by most engine builders they use a special brake in oil which is supposed to be changed pretty quick after the engine is running like maybe 500 miles or something. it's my understanding that the purpose of this is so that the rings can seat in the cylinder walls along with other metal to metal components. I'm not saying that this is the case with every engine but I know this is the case with some.
 

GregO

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And how exactly do you know that?
The information is out there and this ain’t my first rodeo.
As I mentioned, 80% ring seal is a gift. Achieving the last 20% takes work and knowledge.
 

GT Pony

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After starting my search for information some other issues are part of the Coyote engine picture. The typewriter tick after an oil change ...

I am still trying to think of why an oil change might trigger the start of a noise the engine did not have just before the oil change. The only guess I can come up with off hand is the brief time it can take to fill up an oil filter before the engine is fully pressurized.
It's not caused by not pre-filling the oil filter. If it was that simple, Ford would have put a SSM out about that, or would have mentioned it in their typewriter tick SSM 7718.

PS - Post #336 = anger issues, lol. Update - the original Post #336 no longer exists, must have been removed by the Moderators.
 
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GT Pony

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I've been a lot harder on the car. Quite a bit more long trips and spirited driving. I lost about 1/2 quart, give or take, in 5k. It wasn't a progressive loss, either. I had to make the same 16 hour trip twice this year. The first time I had a passenger so I was easy on the pedal. The second time I was alone and got on it a few times and sat around 4k-5k rpms on a couple twisty roads. On the first trip my oil level remained constant. On the second trip my oil level dropped a bit.
Only 1/2 quart in 5000 miles is very low oil consumption. I think the only vehicle I've ever owned that had that low or less consumption was a Toyota Tacoma 4.0L V6. My 2015 GT uses around 1 qt/5000 miles, and I'm AOK with that.
 

GT Pony

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Dude... semantics, but you're right. More to the point, where are you getting your info on the thermal expansion coefficient? Anything I can find points to the thermal expansion to be suitable for forged aluminum pistons. The latter, as I'm sure you know, experiences more thermal expansion.
If the PTWA coating is only 0.004-0.008" thick, then even if that material's thermal expansion coefficient is much higher than the aluminum block, it still won't change much due to how thin it is. On the Gen3 Coyote, It's the thermal expansion of the aluminum block that will dictate cylinder size change as the engine warms up.
 

sk47

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It's not caused by not pre-filling the oil filter. If it was that simple, Ford would have put a SSM out about that, or would have mentioned it in their typewriter tick SSM 7718.

PS - Post #336 = anger issues, lol.
Hello; Fair enough. I made the comment and was careful to indicate it was just a guess. I did not know then, nor do I know now the cause of the noise.
I am still pondering what mechanical mechanism may exist for an engine to run without a noise for a few thousand miles and then upon fire up after an oil change the noise starts to be heard.
For decades I did not prefill oil filters but for some reason started to do so a couple decades ago. I find my engines get quiet a bit sooner if I prefill the oil filter. Again, I am not making a case for this being the specific cause as I do not have any specific information. It was just a guess off the top of my head as the few seconds it takes a dry oil filter to fill is the first thing that came to mind.

It seems to me that the dry oil filter is perhaps the only difference in the condition from the time before the oil change and after the oil change. Again I may be mistaken but I have figured for a long time that after an engine sits for a while the oil has drained into the oil pan. Sure a thin film can linger for a time but it is my take that film will fall away slowly over time.
Nearly all the time when I do an oil change I let the oil drain for maybe 30 minutes to an hour, sometimes less. But for sure a much shorted time than sitting overnight or for a day or two on a normal basis. My thinking is most cars do sit at least over night for several hours and did so during the first few thousand miles before the first oil change. The next day the engine is started up and there is no new noise.
So what can be the reason for a new noise immediately after the first oil change? I know sometimes when an engine sits for a long time the hydraulic lifters might drain down and there can be a lifter tick for a time before it pumps up again. Is there some system in the new Coyote design that runs on oil pressure that might be affected? Also again just asking the question and not making a pronouncement.

On to my take about post #336. How would you describe that post? Seemed written in anger to me from the suggestion I quit posting and the vulgar language. I am new to this forum but not new to forums. I can reply in kind if such is the culture here. On other forums such comments and language are not allowed. I will soon figure out what is allowed and take it from that point. I did not intend to start a ruckus with members here, but If I have then so be it.
 

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Only 1/2 quart in 5000 miles is very low oil consumption. I think the only vehicle I've ever owned that had that low or less consumption was a Toyota Tacoma 4.0L V6. My 2015 GT uses around 1 qt/5000 miles, and I'm AOK with that.
Yeah I'm definitely not complaining. My point was that the amount could be dependent on use. I think some people don't realize that every internal combustion engine, whether perceptible or not, will use oil. Fuel dilution and moisture build up can give the impression that the oil level hasn't changed at all.

If the PTWA coating is only 0.004-0.008" thick, then even if that material's thermal expansion coefficient is much higher than the aluminum block, it still won't change much due to how thin it is. On the Gen3 Coyote, It's the thermal expansion of the aluminum block that will dictate cylinder size change as the engine warms up.
And doesn't the aluminum block have a higher thermal expansion coefficient than the hypereutectic pistons?
 

GT Pony

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Hello; Fair enough. I made the comment and was careful to indicate it was just a guess. I did not know then, nor do I know now the cause of the noise.
I am still pondering what mechanical mechanism may exist for an engine to run without a noise for a few thousand miles and then upon fire up after an oil change the noise starts to be heard.
For decades I did not prefill oil filters but for some reason started to do so a couple decades ago. I find my engines get quiet a bit sooner if I prefill the oil filter. Again, I am not making a case for this being the specific cause as I do not have any specific information. It was just a guess off the top of my head as the few seconds it takes a dry oil filter to fill is the first thing that came to mind.

It seems to me that the dry oil filter is perhaps the only difference in the condition from the time before the oil change and after the oil change. Again I may be mistaken but I have figured for a long time that after an engine sits for a while the oil has drained into the oil pan. Sure a thin film can linger for a time but it is my take that film will fall away slowly over time.
A dry oil filter may cause some initial start-up noise, but it's certainly not going to make the engine make noises for thousands of miles after the initial start-up.

There are only two decent theories on what causes the BBQ/typewriter tick: 1) Excessive rod big end side clearance, and 2) oil cavitation in the journal bearings. There have been a hundred discussions about the possible cause. I lean towards 1) for various reasons that have been discussed for many years on this chat board. There are some super long threads on it all if you look around in this forum.

Adding a friction modifier (like the old Motorcraft XL-17 or Molylube CeraTec) almost instantly makes the typewriter tick disappear. Some guys have also reported that the tick goes away as miles get piled on the oil, which means the friction level of the oil changes as it becomes loaded with combustion soot contamination. Changing the oil causes the friction level to increase, and that sets off some mechanical gyrations, like the big ends of the rods floating back and forth side-to-side on the crank journal and thereby making contact with the crank and causing a "tick". Others think it's oil cavitation, but if that was so why doesn't every Coyote do it, or for that matter many other vehicles because journal bearings are pretty much all designed the same way.

Anyway, even if it was the rod side clearance it's not detrimental to the reliability of the engine - as Ford mentions in SSM 7718. It's just an annoying noise. Many guys just add some CerTec and it goes away. The 2000 RPM is a different animal pretty much unique to the Gen3 Coyote (2018+ models), and the root cause of that noise is not really known either.

On to my take about post #336. How would you describe that post? Seemed written in anger to me from the suggestion I quit posting and the vulgar language. I am new to this forum but not new to forums. I can reply in kind if such is the culture here. On other forums such comments and language are not allowed. I will soon figure out what is allowed and take it from that point. I did not intend to start a ruckus with members here, but If I have then so be it.
Just take the high road and ignore stupid behavior like that. It's not worth getting into arguments with people that fly off the handle over general comments not directly meant for them.
 
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Dfeeds

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So what can be the reason for a new noise immediately after the first oil change?
It could be viscosity dependent. Whatever is causing the noise (excessive or too tight of clearances once warmed up, for example) may benefit from a lower viscosity than the oil starts with. Oil shears with use due to several factors. So, even if it's the exact same viscosity and brand, the oil going in will be a bit more viscous than the oil going out. I had the bbq tick all summer when I ran 5w30. This summer I used 5w20 and had the tick in the beginning but a couple thousand miles in it's gone. It never went away with the 5w30.
 

Elp_jc

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As I mentioned, 80% ring seal is a gift.
I asked how the hell do you know it's at 80%. Or whatever percentage :devil: .

I know sometimes when an engine sits for a long time, the hydraulic lifters might drain down and there can be a lifter tick for a time before it pumps up again.
When changing the oil, it's best to both pre-fill oil filter as much as possible (it can't be fully filled on GTs, due to the angle it sits), and drain oil fully, but not leave it overnight, in order to start the engine while still at least warm, so oil doesn't fully drain to the pan. I let it drain like an hour, at which point it's just dripping slowly. And with 10 quarts of new oil, zero issues even if you just let it sit for half an hour.
 

sk47

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pre-fill oil filter as much as possible (it can't be fully filled on GTs, due to the angle it sits),
Hello; Same for my Sentra. Filter goes on horizontal. I fill it a little at a time until the lining stops soaking up the new oil. I then hold it horizontal and see if any drains out. I figure this is an improvement over a completely dry filter start up.
 

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I asked how the hell do you know it's at 80%. Or whatever percentage :devil: .
“How the hell do I know” ?

The information is out there.
Mostly SAE technical papers and a few engine builders / Dyno operators that are willing to share knowledge.
 
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Elp_jc

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I knew you weren't going to answer the question. You cannot measure that without tearing down an engine (if at all), so it's useless crap for new car owners.
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