Coyote and the Voodoo

[mustang_guy]

I will not dispute the versatility of turbo charging at all, however, there's just something about a NA V8 that no amount of power can replace for me personally. As hard as the regulations are tightening around manufacturers, I think a V8 Mustang can still exist like getting out of it from a low volume stand point, getting it classified as a type of car that is considered outside the requirements, or just having the rest of the fleet average balance it out. 18-25 MPG out of the Coyote is pretty damn good for a 435/400 engine IMO, my daily mule does 19-27, 3.8L V6, and only makes 193/225.

i personally couldnt care less about fuel economy but 25mpg isnt great. The c5, c6 and c7 z06s all get 30mpg on the freeway. If the c5 z06 could do it back in early 2000s Its kind of humorous the coyote cant. However im not sure why some people buy mustangs, camaros etc then complain about mpg. If people want good mpg buy a small 4 cylinder.

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[ConspicuousConsumption]

As others said, the Coyote putting out 435/400 and still getting ~20-24mpg is fantastic. What's wrong with that?

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

i personally couldnt care less about fuel economy but 25mpg isnt great. The c5, c6 and c7 z06s all get 30mpg on the freeway. If the c5 z06 could do it back in early 2000s Its kind of humorous the coyote cant. However im not sure why some people buy mustangs, camaros etc then complain about mpg. If people want good mpg buy a small 4 cylinder.

Because people want both, and the technology exists...so why not?:shrug:

 

[mustang_guy]

The hand built Trinity 5.8 was a two year run. Crazy that so much R&D and resources go to such a short run.

I would like to say one thing about the trinity. Ford messed up by skimping on its rods. Had ford not taken the condors rods and retweaked them and actually came up with a brand new rod It would have been great. The fact you cant take advantage of its higher limiter on a maxed out oe tvs blower (800-850rwhp) without fear of snapping a rod is ridiculous. Ford some how has the balls to ask 39g for its crate engine with a design flaw like that. You blow that motor its 7500 for a bare short block plus 15-20g to have it built. Its the reason i sold my 14 gt500. That motor is over priced to play with.

 

[Catfish]

I would like to say one thing about the trinity. Ford messed up by skimping on its rods. Had ford not taken the condors rods and retweaked them and actually came up with a brand new rod It would have been great. The fact you cant take advantage of its higher limiter on a maxed out oe tvs blower (800-850rwhp) without fear of snapping a rod is ridiculous. Ford some how has the balls to ask 39g for its crate engine with a design flaw like that. You blow that motor its 7500 for a bare short block plus 15-20g to have it built. Its the reason i sold my 14 gt500. That motor is over priced to play with.

You sold it rather than just put aftermarket rods in it? I'm pretty happy with mine at near stock levels.

 

[mustang_guy]

Because people want both, and the technology exists...so why not?:shrug:

True. But when things get over complicated it begins to get more unreliable. Sometimes things dont need to be changed, just because someone can. My .02

 

[mustang_guy]

You sold it rather than just put aftermarket rods in it? I'm pretty happy with mine at near stock levels.

Yes. I wanted over 1000rwhp. I was looking at 20g for a motor build. No thanks. I can go play with 351ws (man o war) from world product and have the same thing for tons cheaper. Or this coyote can be build for half the price.

 

[Blk2015GT]

I will not dispute the versatility of turbo charging at all, however, there's just something about a NA V8 that no amount of power can replace for me personally. As hard as the regulations are tightening around manufacturers, I think a V8 Mustang can still exist like getting out of it from a low volume stand point, getting it classified as a type of car that is considered outside the requirements, or just having the rest of the fleet average balance it out. 18-25 MPG out of the Coyote is pretty damn good for a 435/400 engine IMO, my daily mule does 19-27, 3.8L V6, and only makes 193/225.

As others said, the Coyote putting out 435/400 and still getting ~20-24mpg is fantastic. What's wrong with that?

Sound no debate

Idk anyone hitting 19-20mpg city in honest city driving/traffic. Think NY city or any big city you've traveled to in the downtown area. That's stop and go and what is meant by city. Most seeing 19-20 are more in the "mixed" (combined on the window sticker which is 19 for the GT) range where aren't hitting a street light in a mile or 2. That's not true city driving.

I'm lucky hitting 13mpg for the life of the car in 95% very close to true city driving and 5% mixed, no highway, and I have almost 3000 miles on the car so it's not break-in.

The GT is only rated at 15 city. Putting the 3.6 TT in could get another 4-6 mpg on city and highway which is a lot when they have to meet 54.5mpg over the fleet by 2025.

 

[Catfish]

Yes. I wanted over 1000rwhp. I was looking at 20g for a motor build. No thanks. I can go play with 351ws (man o war) from world product and have the same thing for tons cheaper. Or this coyote can be build for half the price.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[mustang_guy]

Whatever floats your boat.

It was a great car but for a motor that has fully forged internals from the factory, that rod blunder is bs. For people that want serious power out of it, its insanely expensive.

 

[corvettez06usa]

Sound no debate

Idk anyone hitting 19-20mpg city in honest city driving/traffic. Think NY city or any big city you've traveled to in the downtown area. That's stop and go and what is meant by city. Most seeing 19-20 are more in the "mixed" (combined on the window sticker which is 19 for the GT) range where aren't hitting a street light in a mile or 2. That's not true city driving.

I think in those situations, the burden is on the buyer. Mustang has a 2.3L option for folks who want a pretty awesome grand touring style car(my opinion) but can't swing/dont want to swing the fuel costs of a V8. I think it's lame to condemn the bigger badder engine because someone made a bad choice.

 

[Spartan]

True. But when things get over complicated it begins to get more unreliable. Sometimes things dont need to be changed, just because someone can. My .02

I think if they get the weight down more, then you'll obviously see some MPG improvements.

Also with the Camaro 6G coming, they are going to have to do something in '17 to make some MPG gains..that might be the 10 speed transmission, better tune on the engine or other things.

I think in those situations, the burden is on the buyer. Mustang has a 2.3L option for folks who want a pretty awesome grand touring style car(my opinion) but can't swing/dont want to swing the fuel costs of a V8. I think it's lame to condemn the bigger badder engine because someone made a bad choice.

Yah I see it as EB = Audi A5, EB with PP = S5 and GT/GTPP = RS5.

Don't forget though that the EB requires 93 for the power, and the GT does not (loses 1%). I've run the #s after you factor in 93 octane vs 87 and the difference in MPG cost between the EB and GT is like 30 miles different per fill up per week and is like $200 for the year. At that point, I'll take the GT hands down.

 

[Hack]

One thing that kinda strikes me as odd is how Ford introduced new engines for the Mustang at the mid to late point in the S197's life. The V6 and Coyote have only been out 4 years now, (2011 introduction, right?) and it seems way too young to axe them, but with the new platform out it also seems like hanging onto them for too long could be an issue, like the 4.6 (going off the expected 10 year cycle).

The GT350 is shaping up to me to be the greatest Mustang ever, dethroning my personal choice of the 2003-2004 SVT Cobra (if it performs well once out), and one thing I've been really into is the voodoo engine. In today's market it's really bad to have something totally dedicated to one car. So I personally feel the voodoo is going to find its way into the Mustang GT, I just am not sure it would be mid S550 or get saved for the inevitable platform refresh. Seems like the coyote is so awesome that they can buff it up over the S550s life, but waiting till then might make the voodoo too old. And then there is the pressure from GM and that god like engine getting put into Corvettes and Camaros. Thoughts?

Edit: thought I should make it clear I mean the Mustang GT and not the Ford GT, which I personally think is a bit depressing they are going with the 3.5 EB for a 400K car.

I disagree with your assumptions. Modern CAD/CAE tools make analysis and engineering for new engine platforms much less time consuming than in the past. Also, I believe invention and progress have accelerated compared to the past. I expect the Voodoo to be terrific, but I also expect that 5 years from now there will be something better either on the horizon or already on the streets. I can see some design elements from Voodoo making it into the GT, but not Voodoo as is with the current fuel economy. It just won't happen unless the car lobby can get rid of some of the car regulations that are coming.

The "god like" engine in Chivy products you refer to has an uncanny resemblance to a 70s small block Ford with some modern design elements. I REALLY disagree with this point. I don't want a vehicle with cylinder deactivation. I don't like the power delivery of GM's current offerings. And the LS series has so many different varieties out there it's gotta be confusing, even to a GM fan like you. GM seems to be redesigning that engine almost every year. No wonder they are having trouble making money.

I do agree with your criticism of the V6 EB in the Ford GT. Not functionally, but from a sound and the "coolness" factor - I don't like the V6 EB in that car either.

 

[wildsailor]

I've done little research on the reliability of displacement on demand systems (shutting down cylinders) other than hearing they were a nightmare once upon a time, but I expected Ford to have at least considered it for the Coyote in S550 development. I do a lot of highway driving and having my GT cut down to 4 or even 2 cylinders would be pretty swanky.

Ford considered it but went with the Ecoboost instead. The two directions are diametrically opposed:

1. V8 that reduces to a V4 - (a big engine trying to be smaller) this has the drawback of having the friction levels of the large V8 even in V4 mode.

2. Small Ecoboost V6 - (a small engine trying to be bigger) this has the drawback that when you put your foot in it to command a larger displacement (the pressurized charge acts like a larger displacement engine) the fuel usage is higher than that larger displacement engine.

What would be nice is an electronic control system for the wastegate that allows the turbo to be shortcut and run the engine as a NA V6. Then, when you want the power, flip a switch.

Also, I am not sure both would not be able to be mixed. A V6 that drips to a V4 that also has a turbo.

There is one more displacement adjusting powertrain running around out there in the market and that is the 'soft hybrid.' This is where a small engine is used for light acceleration and cruising but when better acceleration is commanded an electric motor is used for supplemental help. So, a 200 HP 4 cyl could be used as the base P/T and a 200 HP electric motor used to supplement the engine to produce a total of up to 400 HP.

 

[Strokerswild]

GM seems to be redesigning that engine almost every year.

They've pushed pushrod OHV architecture about as far as it can go. They are continually refining it to get as much power/efficiency/emissions compliance as possible, but sooner or later will run out of road....

And they've spent a sh*t ton of money continually crutching that cripple, which may have been better used to develop something better.

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