Cooled seats not cooling

[Droid_Junky]

I think the reason you feel more heat after turning it off is because there is still too much heat that has to go somewhere. The fan is no longer pushing it. I do feel it get warmer when off but never feel the seat back get cool to the touch.

I don't have any doubt that it is supposed to cool. Electrically the cushion and back are the same and the service rep can connect his computer and show you the temperature change when selecting heat and cool. When heat was selected the temps were really close to the same temperature. He can monitor all four units at one time. When cool was selected it was less than two minutes of monitoring and there was a already a 14 to 16 degree difference between cushion and back for both seats.



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[FATHERFORD]

Finally got to test my 15 GT seats out, the back portion just doesnt work properly. I have a 2015 F350 and a 2013 Lincoln MKT and the seats were like a champ.

 

[lwilliams]

I am currently driving a 2015 F150 Lariat, fully loaded, while the dealer replaces my dash.

With the cooled seats on high, the seat backs are not cooling. Instead, the backs get hotter, to the point of uncomfortable, with the cooling on. The only way to stay in the seat on a hot day is to turn OFF the seat cooling......

Same experience as my Mustang.

Last summer, the dealer was doing warranty work on my 2014 Escape. They gave me a 2015 F150 to drive at that time. The seat cooling did work great - bottom and back. I was super impressed and this experience was the ONLY reason I got black interior on my Mustang. Looks like I made a mistake.

Now, the bigger problem with this is that Ford can say they are designed to work that way instead of fixing the problem.

If that is the case, I bet the only recourse for vehicle owners is a class action suit to force a repair or other remedy.

(I would be willing to bet that Ford will not fix this unless forced to by the courts.)

 

[FordService]

Deysha, thank you for the response and attention to this thread. I understand where you are coming from but it will be nothing but a waste of my time right now. If there is no fix solution, I don't need the dealer to tell me that, I already know it. ...

It’s no problem, Free Agent. I’m happy to get this escalated to the customer service manager for your area. However, the first step is to make an appointment with your dealer, because they will work together to look into this for you.

Free Agent, I agree with you all except not taking it to the dealer. ...
Deysha, Free Agent brings up a very good point though, can you confirm that this issue has been escalated? Can you tell us if Ford recognizes the problem? Is there work to correct the problem? Is there a form (or on-line preferably) that people can fill out in lieu of taking the car to the dealer?

Thanks

Thanks, jbailer! There is no form, but I can document it in your file if you’d like. Also, once the info is sent up, I don’t get updates on what’s being worked on or not.

So, on a hunch I tried something out today and I'd like to see if anybody else has a similar experience. ...

Be sure to PM me with the info I requested so I can escalate this for you, FeedtheNeed.

Finally got to test my 15 GT seats out, the back portion just doesn't work properly. I have a 2015 F350 and a 2013 Lincoln MKT and the seats were like a champ.

Please address this with your dealer, FATHERFORD. Make an appointment and PM me with your VIN, dealer, mileage, full name, and best daytime number. I’ll loop in the customer service manager for your area.

Deysha

 

[Stangnut]

Maybe she can forward the link to this thread to a few Ford Engineers so they can read first hand what we are seeing and some of the tests that we have done.

2 steps ahead of you already, GT Pony. ;)

Deysha

I for one would really like to hear what they have to say about this. Have them come on here. Officially, unofficially, anonymous, whatever. We just want some answers. And, of course, a solution.

 

[Free Agent]

Deysha @ FordService:

Firstly, thank you for your attention. I really do understand that Ford wants me to take it into the dealer first. But you must understand that at this point it is FRUITLESS. There is nothing that can be done other than escalate it to the next level. I'm trying to save myself and the dealership time and effort. Its like this…. If I am experiencing symptoms of Strep Throat, I see other people in my area with symptoms of Strep Throat that have been to the "doctor" (Dealer Service) and diagnosed with Strep Throat. Then I make an appointment with the doctor to look at my symptoms (which I know is Strep Throat) and the doctor says, "Yes you have Strep Throat." At that stage a CURE or FIX is prescribed by the doctor. But in this case, the doctor (Dealer Service) says. We can't give you anything for the Strep Throat. WHY DID I JUST VISIT THE DOCTOR THEN? That is exactly the scenario that sits in front of me. It isn't going to fix anything and it only gives me a CHANCE of having it escalated. I'm not into maybes and what ifs, I need solid answers if I'm going to invest my time and money. I truly appreciate the time you have given us here, please don't leave. But I'm not going to waste my time taking it in, I may report it to the dealership, but that is going to be their first response, bring it in. It is lunacy at this point in my book. Sorry but its how I feel. :(

For Droid, I found this interesting…

During normal operation:
Cabin air is drawn through the seat fan motor and distributed to each of the TED modules located in the seat cushion and backrest.

Our seatback most certainly does NOT draw cabin air through the motor. It draws warm, trapped air from the seatback. If it had access to cabin air from a slotted vent in the back of the seat I could see it working better possibly. But it doesn't and it doesn't work right because of it.

For lwilliams:

I wonder if Ford has switched suppliers for the TED modules in the seat backs of their 2015 vehicles? Interesting.

For Stang Nut:

I'm with you there. More of us taking it in solves nothing. The solution needs to come from Ford OR they just need to say they are functioning within parameters so that way I won't ever order the option again because they are a faulty design.

 

[Free Agent]

Free Agent, I agree with you all except not taking it to the dealer. You're absolutely correct that the dealer cannot fix the problem. This is clearly a Ford Engineering issue and can only be fixed by Ford. When I was at the dealer to look at my seats, the Service Technician pulled in a new car off the lot to show me it worked exactly the same. I can't say this is how they operate but from my experience (and I'm old) many manufacturers will go by sampling or number of problems reported to determine the resolution track for a product issue. Since the authorized dealers are Fords customers, not us, they are the ones that need to provide that feedback to Ford. Typically, the more occurrences or reports of an issue, the higher the priority it receives. If very few people take their cars into the dealer to report the issue or complain about it, Ford may just take note of it and improve it in a future model and do nothing to fix ours.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, the crying baby gets the milk, etc. etc.

Deysha, Free Agent brings up a very good point though, can you confirm that this issue has been escalated? Can you tell us if Ford recognizes the problem? Is there work to correct the problem? Is there a form (or on-line preferably) that people can fill out in lieu of taking the car to the dealer?

Thanks,
Joe

It all boils down to "Why should I waste my own time and money?" That may be a very selfish attitude but its not working through any fault of my own, its from the fault of the unit itself. Taking it in also subjects the car to a lot of other things as well. Will the exterior get scratched up? Will the interior get scuffed or ripped when they inspect it? I don't mind taking a vehicle in for a fix, I can tolerate possible cosmetic issues if the car is "fixed". But there is nothing to be fixed at this point. In my book it is a lose lose situation. I'm not into a no-win situation. Yes I know selfish on my part but its my prerogative.

 

[jbailer]

It all boils down to "Why should I waste my own time and money?" That may be a very selfish attitude but its not working through any fault of my own, its from the fault of the unit itself. Taking it in also subjects the car to a lot of other things as well. Will the exterior get scratched up? Will the interior get scuffed or ripped when they inspect it? I don't mind taking a vehicle in for a fix, I can tolerate possible cosmetic issues if the car is "fixed". But there is nothing to be fixed at this point. In my book it is a lose lose situation. I'm not into a no-win situation. Yes I know selfish on my part but its my prerogative.

It's only a waste of time if you don't care if Ford fixes it or not. We all know now that no dealer is going to fix this problem, it is clearly a Ford design issue. Dealers can't re-engineer it, only replace/fix broken parts. That being said, the only way to get to Ford is through the dealer.

I wouldn't say you're being selfish, it just sounds like you don't care enough about the issue to do what needs to be done to try to get Ford to step up and fix it. If everyone else feels that way too then I'm 100% sure Ford will do nothing. Of course "your prerogative" is to sit back and hope enough other people will take their cars in to the dealers and have them file complaints with Ford and maybe you can benefit from the rest of us. OK, now that I said that, maybe it is selfish. addle:

 

[Free Agent]

It's only a waste of time if you don't care if Ford fixes it or not. We all know now that no dealer is going to fix this problem, it is clearly a Ford design issue. Dealers can't re-engineer it, only replace/fix broken parts. That being said, the only way to get to Ford is through the dealer.

I wouldn't say you're being selfish, it just sounds like you don't care enough about the issue to do what needs to be done to try to get Ford to step up and fix it. If everyone else feels that way too then I'm 100% sure Ford will do nothing. Of course "your prerogative" is to sit back and hope enough other people will take their cars in to the dealers and have them file complaints with Ford and maybe you can benefit from the rest of us. OK, now that I said that, maybe it is selfish. addle:

I bolded something that is very wrong for a business to do in my estimation. It shouldn't be that way.

It is a waste of time, we will have to agree to disagree there. Its like sitting in front of your computer and wanting to play Tetris and you don't have that game downloaded on your computer. Are you going to sit there and keep trying to play a game that the computer does not have on file? Its the same thing, a dealer doesn't have the solution programmed for this problem. Its the definition of insanity to continue to do something the same way and think you are going to get a different result.

My problem once again is that there is NOTHING for me in this situation. Just a slightly elevated chance that someone at Ford might notice it. If I am going to invest time money and chance for cosmetic damage there better be a reward or incentive to do such. I hate to say "what's in it for me" but that is where I stand. It boils down to business. The risk isn't worth the reward in this situation for me. There is NO reward, its all risk.

I've said it before, I WOULD be willing to sit down with a Ford representative or Ford Engineer and let them do some of the testing. I'd actually be willing to drive all the way to St.Louis on my own dime to visit with someone ABOVE the dealership level. Dealership level can't solve this, Ford execs, Ford engineering, Ford Quality Control CAN solve or resolve this (if they say it functions within parameters). And like I said, I'm willing to drive 100 miles, 200 round trip for just a chance to talk or show a Ford higher up what the problem is. I don't mind showing people that can help us out, a dealership service department isn't going to be able to do jack squat. Its not their fault, they don't have the solution. It's FORD's fault. I just want to go to the source and I won't "settle" for the middle man. Okay, done with my rant. ;)

 

[GT Pony]

I agree that it would be a waste of time to take it into a dealer for diagnosis. Even if they thought it wasn't working right, the only thing they would do is order new cooling units for the seat backs, and you'd be right back where you started.

The dealership that Droid_Junky talked to sounded like they knew what they were doing with the diagnosis, which pretty much confirmed what we are seeing with our tests at home. Can't recall what Droid_Junky's dealership concluded, but I doubt they wanted to try and put new units in to see what happens. They probably understood that it boils down to a design issue where the units are over heating within a short time and therefore not working as they should.

If Deysha (FordService on here) could get this information to the Engineers who are involved with the cooled seats, then maybe they will start an internal investigation and see what we are seeing. I don't think it would take them long to understand the problem. But I'm still scratching my head wondering how this design went into production ... Ford must not have done much testing before someone said "built it". :shrug:

 

[Droid_Junky]

If I wouldn't have pushed them to look further they would have simply scanned for code errors and said they couldn't find an issue. Once he felt the heat that I was talking about he discussed how on some other cars there is actual duct work to get cabin air to the fan. He suggested trying to leave the flaps open on the bottom to allow more air flow. He then connected his computer and showed me the temps of all four sensors. That is when we saw the difference between the cushions and backs was something like 14-16 degrees. I believe I give the exact number a few pages back. We didn't sit there watching the temps for more than five minutes but the difference was obvious after even a minute. When set to heat the difference was much smaller but switching back to cool the bottoms dropped quickly. He offered to replace the part but since both sides were doing the same thing it was more likely a design issue.

 

[Darko66]

Deleted

 

[GT Pony]

^^^ I think Droid_Junky verified that the rubber flex tube is directing air from the fan and out the perforated leather surface on the seat back, which would be blowing it onto your back. If that is the case, then that flex hose has to be the path of the cooled air.

The waste heat most likely vents out the unit and into the back volume of the seat as I've shown with the red arrows. Ideally, the waste heat should vent down and out the back of the seat back, not inside the seat back. That thin white foam material (yellow arrows) seems to be the insulation layer between the cold side and hot side (waste heat) of the unit.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=634824&postcount=171

 

[Darko66]

photo attached is one from a Lincoln MKZ I think. I can't find a photo of ours.

Note that There's two vents. The one pointing up at a 90° angle is the one that goes to the seat. The one pointing straight forward is the waste vent. That's the way the ones I've found work and the way the one on the bottom cushion appear to work as well.

They don't all have such a large protrusion. If you do an images search for the part number minus the letter at the end you can find a few other images - 19n550 (ours have an A and B at the end, other models have different letters).

 

[GT Pony]

^^^ The photo taken by Droid_Junky of the ones in the back of the seat in the Mustang don't look the same, so apparently the ones in the Mustang are unique.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/member.php?u=9252

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