Cam Shaft Position Timing Over Retarded

[ARDrummond25]

All, I’m hoping someone can tell me if they’ve experienced what my car is telling me and what the fix, if any, was.

Yesterday I was running at the track (Laguna Seca) and in track mode and on a couple non consecutive runs my car gave me a solid engine light. I had an OBDII sensor plugged in so I ran a scan and it told me my cam shaft position timing was off by a small margin. You can see the exact message and reading in the pic.

After the first time it happened I cleared the codes after talking to my mechanic and then did a run at 60% or so and it was fine. The next run out I pushed it again and I got the same code (actually just one this time instead of two the first time). I cleared the codes again and called it a day. By the time I drove home from the track the permanent codes were also clear.

any ideas what is going on? I’ve never had this issue at the track before. Oh and my car is a 2017 GT350

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[pilotgore]

All, I’m hoping someone can tell me if they’ve experienced what my car is telling me and what the fix, if any, was.

Yesterday I was running at the track (Laguna Seca) and in track mode and on a couple non consecutive runs my car gave me a solid engine light. I had an OBDII sensor plugged in so I ran a scan and it told me my cam shaft position timing was off by a small margin. You can see the exact message and reading in the pic.

After the first time it happened I cleared the codes after talking to my mechanic and then did a run at 60% or so and it was fine. The next run out I pushed it again and I got the same code (actually just one this time instead of two the first time). I cleared the codes again and called it a day. By the time I drove home from the track the permanent codes were also clear.

any ideas what is going on? I’ve never had this issue at the track before. Oh and my car is a 2017 GT350

I’ve had these two things happen on multiple occasions.

It could be the wires are being stretched at the camshaft solenoids for both connectors on bank 2 and are intermittently coming out of the connector (or possibly just pulling far enough away where contact stops being made momentarily.)

There’s also a possibility that both solenoids on bank 2 have broken free from their hold down bracket inside of the valve cover.

I’d say give each of the 4 solenoids a tug side to side to see if there’s any play. If they have play, that’s likely the issue.

Im betting it’s wiring though, as it’s a known weak point. @honeybadger has a video discussing it:

 

[BierGut]

I'm with pilotgore -- dealing with the same issue. I actually heard an arc when fiddling with the wires and plugs. (also developed at the track)

 

[ARDrummond25]

Thanks guys. I didn’t notice any play in the wires. But I’m due for a pre/post track checkup so I’ll ask the pros to check too

 

[Cobra Jet]

What was the results of your findings? Was the issue related to cam wire harnesses, a sensor or timing chain TSB?

 

[ARDrummond25]

So this turned out to be essentially nothing. Ford said that since I was in track mode (traction control off) and operating in track conditions (near red line) this was caused by momentary wheel slip and engine spikes over redline. In other words, it was nothing, just the sensors letting me know I was pushing the limit which I already knew.

 

[honeybadger]

Arggh. That's not how that works. I mean, it could be, but it's 99% not.

If I had to guess, they couldn't detect the issue and gave you a bullshit excuse. I'd be prepared for it to happen again. I'll still bet a dollar it's the plugs--always is with bank 2.

Wheel slip won't cause an overrev. The ECU will stop that. Only thing that would cause that is something forces the motor to overrev mechanically -- such as a money shift. If anything, it could potentially be an oil pressure issue, but you'd be the first to get error code for it.

 

[ARDrummond25]

Arggh. That's not how that works. I mean, it could be, but it's 99% not.

If I had to guess, they couldn't detect the issue and gave you a bullshit excuse. I'd be prepared for it to happen again. I'll still bet a dollar it's the plugs--always is with bank 2.

Wheel slip won't cause an overrev. Only thing that would cause that is a money shift. If anything, it could potential be an oil pressure issue, but you'd be the first to get error code for it.

ok I’ll keep an eye on it. My next track day is in a couple weeks and I’ll do some runs in track mode and sport mode and see if that makes any difference. I haven’t noticed the engine bogging or otherwise misbehaving either on the street or at the track so that’s the only inconsistency with the plugs theory.

 

[honeybadger]

ok I’ll keep an eye on it. My next track day is in a couple weeks and I’ll do some runs in track mode and sport mode and see if that makes any difference. I haven’t noticed the engine bogging or otherwise misbehaving either on the street or at the track so that’s the only inconsistency with the plugs theory.

What your describing is EXACTLY how I discovered this issue in the first place. It was intermittent for a while. 2 trips to the dealer for them to fix it. Missed it the first time, found it the second when it got bad. After it happened again, I went on a mission of my own to discover it and was able to narrow it down. I now travel with an extra engine harness and a couple of extra plugs (that's extreme on my end).

Not trying to be doom and gloom, just wanted to make sure you knew the reality. If it were me, I would carry an extra plug that you could swap in at a track day if it goes

 

[ARDrummond25]

What your describing is EXACTLY how I discovered this issue in the first place. It was intermittent for a while. 2 trips to the dealer for them to fix it. Missed it the first time, found it the second when it got bad. After it happened again, I went on a mission of my own to discover it and was able to narrow it down. I now travel with an extra engine harness and a couple of extra plugs (that's extreme on my end).

Not trying to be doom and gloom, just wanted to make sure you knew the reality. If it were me, I would carry an extra plug that you could swap in at a track day if it goes

that exceeds my skill level but if it happens again I’ll at least know where to rub the tech’s nose when I bring the car back to them. I did check the plugs and none of them appeared to have any play so I couldn’t say with much confidence that was the initial cause.

 

[honeybadger]

that exceeds my skill level but if it happens again I’ll at least know where to rub the tech’s nose when I bring the car back to them. I did check the plugs and none of them appeared to have any play so I couldn’t say with much confidence that was the initial cause.

Typically, it's where the wires go into the back of the plug. When it gets bad, you'll be able to wiggle the wires right behind the plug and trigger the error.

 

[ARDrummond25]

So I went back to the track and ran hot laps in both sports mode (so traction control would stay on) and track mode and pushed as hard as I ever do and no lights were trigged in the 40 or so laps I did. So whatever gremlins infected the car last time, they didn't show up yesterday. Cars man... who knows what is going on here LOL.

 

[stanglife]

Other thing to consider...and this is likely very rare but I'll tell you my experience... (this was on a 4V Mach1 engine a few years back) The camshaft position sensors are actually on the rear of the heads - I believe the 350 is still like this based on this image (see the space in the head for both pickups on that head and the reluctors on the rear of each cam). Those reluctor wheels are pressed on and in my case, it was loose enough on the camshaft that it moved a few degrees, throwing a position code. I checked timing a few times and I couldn't explain it and then found the wheel loose. I manually moved it to what should have been very close and it was right on the money and started running perfectly. I eventually swapped the cam out.

 

[BierGut]

What your describing is EXACTLY how I discovered this issue in the first place. It was intermittent for a while. 2 trips to the dealer for them to fix it. Missed it the first time, found it the second when it got bad. After it happened again, I went on a mission of my own to discover it and was able to narrow it down. I now travel with an extra engine harness and a couple of extra plugs (that's extreme on my end).

Not trying to be doom and gloom, just wanted to make sure you knew the reality. If it were me, I would carry an extra plug that you could swap in at a track day if it goes

HB:

Have you cut spliced new plugs at the track or does the little harness plug into the plug itself?

I need to acquaint myself with some of these fixes at the track. Have had multiple CEL for thiese type issues.

BG

 

[RetiredFireCaptain]

@honeybadger couldn't you fill the opening where the wire goes into the plug with some kind of epoxy to keep it in that end of the connector?

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