BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[GregO]

Someone should try Castrol Edge Extended Performance SAE 0W-20 oil for a few thousand miles and report back. It's available at WalMart at the price point of all the others and has the Castrol Patented Titanium FST. It's patented for a reason, not marketing.

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[accel]

Someone should try Castrol Edge Extended Performance SAE 0W-20 oil for a few thousand miles and report back. It's available at WalMart at the price point of all the others and has the Castrol Patented Titanium FST. It's patented for a reason, not marketing.

if you got the tick, its not going away no matter what oil you use.

those who got tick do not know how they got it.

those who do not have tick do not know why they do not have tick.

if you had tick and 0w20 castrol edge titanium fixed it - let us know.

I tried 5w30 castrol edge titanium and it did not eliminata tick I had.

 

[GT Pony]

if you got the tick, its not going away no matter what oil you use.

those who got tick do not know how they got it.

those who do not have tick do not know why they do not have tick.

if you had tick and 0w20 castrol edge titanium fixed it - let us know.

I tried 5w30 castrol edge titanium and it did not eliminata tick I had.

Yet, anti-friction additives like Cera Tech get rid of the tick almost instant. So the lubrication does have an effect.

 

[Condor1970]

Yet, anti-friction additives like Cera Tech get rid of the tick almost instant. So the lubrication does have an effect.

These new anti-friction additives do absolutely have an effect. However, because most of them are fairly new, and/or patented, the oil companies aren't putting it into their oil. I have a feeling they will eventually. The testing they do for long term stability and performance is quite extensive. It could be a few more years before someone like Pennzoil starts adding hexagonal Boron nano-particles as a standard additive to their oil. Also, when adding any friction reducer, there's always concern for concentration and fallout causing excessive sludge buildup etc.
Plus, I honestly don't know what the long term effects of Ceratec are. That's why I'm just going to use to a good all around oil, and if I need to add a little I will. Otherwise I won't. After initial treatment, maybe just putting in a small 50ml every oil change with 10qts of oil will be enough. Who knows? Hopefully, I won't need to use any.

 

[GregO]

if you got the tick, its not going away no matter what oil you use.

those who got tick do not know how they got it.

those who do not have tick do not know why they do not have tick.

if you had tick and 0w20 castrol edge titanium fixed it - let us know.

I tried 5w30 castrol edge titanium and it did not eliminata tick I had.

I referenced,
Castrol Edge Extended Performance SAE 0W-20.

Not the standard issue Edge Ti you referred to.

I prefer Castrol Edge Professional E 0W-20.
I also understand most wont run out to the JLR Dealer and pay 11.00 per Liter.
With that said the Edge Extended Performance SAE is a very close runner up to Professional E.

 

[accel]

Yet, anti-friction additives like Cera Tech get rid of the tick almost instant. So the lubrication does have an effect.

Oil additives containing particles fix the tick - ceratec or just carbon black powder. That's not really lubrication related. They obviously just prevent metal to metal contact and reduce sound.

Most popular mos2 friction modifier does not.fix the tick. Not sure any other friction modifiers fix it either. So that's not friction/lubrication related.

 

[accel]

I referenced,
Castrol Edge Extended Performance SAE 0W-20.

Not the standard issue Edge Ti you referred to.

I prefer Castrol Edge Professional E 0W-20.
I also understand most wont run out to the JLR Dealer and pay 11.00 per Liter.
With that said the Edge Extended Performance SAE is a very close runner up to Professional E.

Whatever I used had titanium patented thing you mentioned and were making the whole point of the post of.

But there's zero statistics of castrol in regards to tick on this forum.

If you have healthy engine to begin with you can't say it is healthy because you use castrol with titanium.

People had tried pup and some said it greatly reduced the tick, but it was temporary reduction for most.

 

[accel]

These new anti-friction additives do absolutely have an effect. However, because most of them are fairly new, and/or patented, the oil companies aren't putting it into their oil. I have a feeling they will eventually. The testing they do for long term stability and performance is quite extensive. It could be a few more years before someone like Pennzoil starts adding hexagonal Boron nano-particles as a standard additive to their oil. Also, when adding any friction reducer, there's always concern for concentration and fallout causing excessive sludge buildup etc.
Plus, I honestly don't know what the long term effects of Ceratec are. That's why I'm just going to use to a good all around oil, and if I need to add a little I will. Otherwise I won't. After initial treatment, maybe just putting in a small 50ml every oil change with 10qts of oil will be enough. Who knows? Hopefully, I won't need to use any.

Yes. I drained ceratec after a couple days as it quieted things down, but did not fix it 100%.

Also, while I was pretty confident it works good within oil, I wasn't so sure of what it does when gets wented out and burns in cylinders. It may very well become abrasive dry particles.

Also in DI 2018+ engines it may contribute to valve carbonization.

 

[TheLion]

I'll be running 5W-30 all the time from here on out, and sleep well at night. All my oil research landed me to go with Valvoline Advanced full synthetic because of its dexos1 Gen2 SN+, has 3.2 HTHS and 9% Noack. It's KV100 is also at the 10.2 cSt "sweet spot". And it's only $22 for a 5 quart jug at Walmart and is easily available. No need for expensive "boutique" oils for my GT.

According to Ford Performance, the big issue with changing oil viscosity is how FAST the cam phasors respond. According to them using a thicker oil causes them to take more than one cycle to respond. So instead of advancing the cam phase the next cycle, it may take two. The engine is going respond more sluggishly and make less power at that next cycle. Your simply not going to make optimal power on 5W-30. Hence why they said the phasors are sensitive to even a single grade viscosity change. The bearing clearances are optimized for 20 weight oil at the pressure and flow of the oil pump used. Pressure and flow rates along with heat affect the "optimal viscosity" just as much as the weight of the oil and the clearance used. So it may work, but is it really "better"? I still argue that using a more temperature stable 5W-20 is a better solution, even if a little more expensive.

The ECU calibrations for the Aussie cars are not going to be identical to the US cars. And the UK cars are different as well, in fact they make less power than the US versions (including their official rated power). Right there is a real measurable difference. UK cars are optimized for 5W-20 if that's what the manual calls for. Aussie cars are optimized for 5W-30 and run in a substantially hotter environment on average. How do you know the oil pump isn't slightly different or the rod bearing clearances are not slightly different? We can claim they "must be" all we want, but I at least have proof that the Boss 302 runs 0.0020 to 0.0025 right from Ford Performance OE short block replacement specs. Thats quite different from the 0.011 to 0.0027 range of production 5.0's.

All of these little tweaks have notable impacts. I doubt you'll have any issues with function or short term reliability that are substantial because 20 and 30 are so close, but I don't believe it's optimal and sticking with an ACEA A5/B5 spec 5W-20 is the better solution for high temp protection without being overly thick during normal driving. The ECU is also calibrated for the expected changes in viscosity. 2018's use a different calibration than the 2015-2017's. And the S197 Track Pack GT's use a different calibration than the standard S197 GT's. I'm not aware of any 5.0's that have thrown rod bearings because of 5W-20, only people who suggest they will or that you "need more protection". Over on the HPDE section, there's a big split, some people run 5W-20's, others run 5W-30's. No reported failures of either, but one is more optimal than the other.

There are over 600,000 F-150's on the road just in 2015-2017, about 1/3 of them with the 5.0. Many of them tow heavy loads and are work trucks. Many of them run 5W-20 semi-syn without any issues, some are up to over 200k miles now. Just a case in point, all of the torture testing was done on MC Semi-syn 5W-20. That doesn't make it the best oil choice possible, but it means if that base oil is good enough, then any high performance base stock 5W-20 would provide more than enough protection without causing abnormal cam phasor behavior. It's all about making as much power as you can without failure. Enough is enough. More is not always better. Rod bearings may not be that sensitive to 20 vs 30, but what if the cam phasors are? Can you prove they are NOT? So why question what Ford Performance has consistently warned about even if it isn't causing harm? I suppose in the end it doesn't matter. We are each going to do what we want regardless. I'd consider this issue closed.

 

[TheLion]

On a side note, I got a reply from TriboTEX regarding MoDTC (organo molybdenum compounds) and their interaction with DLC coatings. In short they perform synergistic-ally. The MoDTC works to reduce friction further yet beyond what TriboTEX does on it's own and ZDDP continues to provide added anti-wear protection by filling in the porous MSH DLC film. The DLC film also promotes increased oil adhesion. This will provide added protection an film thickness to the rod bearing. MSH films can be up to 30 microns thick in some instances but as thin as just a few microns in the tightest clearances they can form between rubbing pairs.

Given how effect the MSH EP additive is at limiting wear, reducing friction and promoting oil adhesion, I'd wager that TriboTEX when used with a high quality PAO or Ester base oil with MoDTC concentrations of 600 ppm or less (more doesn't provide any added benefits so it's only wasted material) will provide better protection than off-the shelf 5W-30's even when at the temp limits. MoS2 (which is what MoDTC decays into) has proven to provide up to several minutes of reliable engine operation even with no oil. It's a very effective EP additive in the proper form and dosage along with ZDDP and MSH. I'm not sure you can get better than that!

 

[TheLion]

Here is what they had to say about MoDTC, ZDDP and TriboTEX:

There is an emphasis on deploying these additives in lubricants that are used in systems with DLC coated components, as well as the beneficial synergistic function of friction reduction and wear reversal. These results are more commonly observed with the organoMoly compounds in combination with hydrogenated DLC coated surfaces. The most effective concentrations seem to be below 600 ppm, although lower concentration require longer activation times and higher temperatures to achieve a positive result in terms of wear and friction reduction.
Please feel free to browse the literature in the references and let me know if you have any questions or concerns. I have also attached a pdf version of an European patent filed by Infineum for your curiosity. There are a few details regarding the compatibility of lubrication regimes employing Moly/zddp and DLC coated components (which I highlighted for ease of finding in the long technically dense document).
There is a slight difference in the type of DLC coating application methods leading to varying characteristics of the DLC structure. TriboTEX is an in-situ forming DLC coating. The simple definition of the differentiation is that unlike other DLC coating methods, which require an avenue for carbon deposition onto the interface surface during the final finishing steps of fabrication, the coating forms during operation by 'growing', through catalyst-initiated attachment to the underlying nano-sheet substrate, an amorphous carbonaceous capping layer, which organizes into an sp2-sp3 DLC structure. In comparison to the conventional types of DLC coating the isDLC ( in-situ Diamond-Like Carbon) is most similar to the hydrogenated DLC coatings. One key difference is that due to the nature of the MHS structure this DLC coating becomes highly impregnated with silicon and is often referred to as a silicon-rich, hydrogenated DLC.
There should not be any issue with usage of higher concentration Moly and ZDDP in combination with DLC coatings resulting from the application of TriboTEX nano-sheet MHS additives. The synergistic results are mostly observed when organo-metalic variants of moly are deployed AKA MoDTC (Molybdenum DialkyldiThioCarbamate). The most prominent improvements in friction/wear reduction performance are observed when lubricated component interfaces are coated with hydrogenated DLC coatings.
However, I would caution you that it is unlikely that you can continue to increase the performance of the lubrication regime by selectively increasing Moly content in the oil. Additional ppm will not yield the same proportional improvements in performance above an optimal level (containing the ZDDP concentration below the poisoning threshold of the catalytic converter and Moly content somewhere in the range of 200-600ppm). As
with all mechanical systems there is the constraint of diminishing returns that accompanies all material focused improvements in performance.

As with most common wisdom, don't go messing with the oil formulas. TriboTEX works particularly well with oil formulas containing Moly. It is an in-situ DLC film, not an oil additive. It simply uses the oil as a carrier to the rubbing pairs. It does not contain any chemical friction modifiers and is suspended in an Ester base oil carrier fluid.

That means RedLine (600 ppm) and Motorcraft (200 ppm) should work just fine and may actually be more optimal than formulas not containing it. BTW RedLine's 5W-20 has a HTHS of 3.0...it provides the same high temp protection as most 5W-30's. Even at 3.2 HTHS of Valvoline, the difference is only 6.3%...pretty small. Even with Ravenol's 2.9 HTHS is only 9.4% difference from one of the better performing 5W-30's, so not even breaking 10% in the HTHS range. How about AMSOIL? AMSOIL's 5W-30 has a HTHS of 3.11. The difference is even smaller! I'll leave that up to you to decide. At some point we are simply nitpicking meaningless differences in one area without looking at the fact that 100C viscosity vary by 20% or more. Those differences matter as well for parts not operating under HTHS like camp phasors etc. Just how much is enough...? But here it is at least regarding TriboTEX and it's comparability with ZDDP and MoDTC, they play particularly nice together and will provide the best possible EP protection you can achieve with current technology.

I also attached some information from Infinium regarding organo-Moly compounds. This is a peak into what is actually going into some of these high end motor oils. Driven, RedLine and Motorcraft are the 3 I know of using MoDTC presently in sizable concentrations (> 75 ppm).

 

[TheLion]

And just as a refresher for TriboTEX for those that are interested, see attached. Best wishes and happy motoring, TheLion.

 

[benjaminforeal]

I (being an engineer as well) agree with you.

- there's no explanation from ford on what it is and why this is normal.
- tick under warranty may develop into serious engine problem out of warranty.
- this diminishes resale value dramatically as no one will want to buy ticking/knocking car.
- so if you can make ford buy it that's an option.

I like the car very much and will pursue warranty repair until under warranty or until fixed.

If there was any other car at market that would look as attractive to me as a gt (price/features/looks/legacy/potential/.../.../...), I'd probably play lemon bay back way of getting out of it. But there isn't.

I agree with everything you state here minus the last paragraph. I'm going with a 6th gen Camaro .

 

[dirty-max]

I agree with everything you state here minus the last paragraph. I'm going with a 6th gen Camaro .

I’m leaning towards either a gt350 or Camaro myself

 

[GT Pony]

Oil additives containing particles fix the tick - ceratec or just carbon black powder. That's not really lubrication related. They obviously just prevent metal to metal contact and reduce sound.

Most popular mos2 friction modifier does not.fix the tick. Not sure any other friction modifiers fix it either. So that's not friction/lubrication related.

Anything that causes less friction, and less metal-to-metal contact and wear via viscosity, anti-wear additives, friction modifiers, etc is "lubrication related". That's what the phases of lubrication is all about (ie, the Steinbeck Curve).

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