BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[HermanGerman]

BTW, anyone know what the maximum temps are on the stock GT catalysts? The highest I've seen is 1669F at 6441 RPM in 4th gear, the car was really moving and under high load (getting a worst case). I know Ford Performance leaves in all of the protections, so they will take measure to keep the cats from over heating. I was just curious. Bank 1 and Bank 2 cats seem to track identically temperature wise. Only Bank 1 is throwing a Sensor 2 code however. So at this point I suspect the sensor itself or wiring harness got a little toasty...

it works at its best between 800°C und 900°C if it is more than 1000 celsius it will get thermical old and break after some time. it can take high temps over 1000celsius. but not all the time i hope i got the question right. cheers Lion.

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[HermanGerman]

is this not interesting? because the Duramax made very similar noises and there was a TSB.

TSB for the Duramax Typewriter ticking.


https://www.hotshotsecret.com/diagn...vice-bulletins/2001-2015-duramax-ticking-tsb/

SERVICE INFORMATION
Some of the above vehicles may exhibit a random ticking noise that is most audible on an engine with a coolant temperature of 70°C (158°F) or higher and from idle to approximately 1500 RPM. The noise usually is most noticeable at the rear of the driver’s side front wheel well. Customers may also comment about hearing a tick noise inside the vehicle at idle such as when sitting at a drive through window. All 6600 Duramax™ diesel engines have this condition; however, some are more audible than others. Engine build variation from engine to engine contributes to differences in perceived volume. All Duramax™ engines are manufactured to very close tolerances to meet the durability and reliability standards.

This noise is caused by the relationship of the engine cylinder block, crankshaft journals, bearing inserts and the oil film. This relationship may allow a vibration that resonates through the cylinder block and is heard as a metallic ticking noise. The noise could be described as an irregular ticking or clacking sound, like random typing on a mechanical typewriter.

This condition has been present in diesel engines produced for the last 20 or more years. The overall noise reduction in engines produced today makes this noise seem new when, in fact, it was masked by other noises in the past. Many manufacturers such as Isuzu, Hino, Mitsubishi, and Nissan report a similar condition in their diesel engines. Testing and engine teardowns with this condition reveal no condition that would affect reliability or durability of this engine.

Dealers should not attempt to compare any customer vehicles exhibiting this noise with other similar vehicles as the noise is different from vehicle to vehicle and this may lead to the incorrect conclusion that the vehicle has a condition. This noise is a normal operating characteristic of the engine. This noise has no short or long term effects on the engine. Do not attempt repairs for this noise.

IMPORTANT:Replacing the engine or internal components for this noise will not reduce or eliminate the noise.
Please share the information found in this bulletin with customers who inquire about this condition. In the event they have additional questions or concerns, please advise them to contact Customer Assistance at the numbers listed below for further information.

 

[TheLion]

it works at its best between 800°C und 900°C if it is more than 1000 celsius it will get thermical old and break after some time. it can take high temps over 1000celsius. but not all the time i hope i got the question right. cheers Lion.

So it looks like the Ford Peformance PCM calibration is doing it's thing exactly as intended. My peak temp (worst case, 6400 RPM, WOT in 4th gear on a long pull starting around 4k) was 1669F which is 909C, right at the top of the optimal range but well below the peak limit. So there's no reason for the cats to be having issues from a temperature standpoint.

 

[TheLion]

is this not iinteresting? because the Duramax made very similar noises and there was a TSB.

TSB for the Duramax Typewriter ticking.


https://www.hotshotsecret.com/diagn...vice-bulletins/2001-2015-duramax-ticking-tsb/

SERVICE INFORMATION
Some of the above vehicles may exhibit a random ticking noise that is most audible on an engine with a coolant temperature of 70°C (158°F) or higher and from idle to approximately 1500 RPM. The noise usually is most noticeable at the rear of the driver’s side front wheel well. Customers may also comment about hearing a tick noise inside the vehicle at idle such as when sitting at a drive through window. All 6600 Duramax™ diesel engines have this condition; however, some are more audible than others. Engine build variation from engine to engine contributes to differences in perceived volume. All Duramax™ engines are manufactured to very close tolerances to meet the durability and reliability standards.

This noise is caused by the relationship of the engine cylinder block, crankshaft journals, bearing inserts and the oil film. This relationship may allow a vibration that resonates through the cylinder block and is heard as a metallic ticking noise. The noise could be described as an irregular ticking or clacking sound, like random typing on a mechanical typewriter.

This condition has been present in diesel engines produced for the last 20 or more years. The overall noise reduction in engines produced today makes this noise seem new when, in fact, it was masked by other noises in the past. Many manufacturers such as Isuzu, Hino, Mitsubishi, and Nissan report a similar condition in their diesel engines. Testing and engine teardowns with this condition reveal no condition that would affect reliability or durability of this engine.

Dealers should not attempt to compare any customer vehicles exhibiting this noise with other similar vehicles as the noise is different from vehicle to vehicle and this may lead to the incorrect conclusion that the vehicle has a condition. This noise is a normal operating characteristic of the engine. This noise has no short or long term effects on the engine. Do not attempt repairs for this noise.

IMPORTANT:Replacing the engine or internal components for this noise will not reduce or eliminate the noise.
Please share the information found in this bulletin with customers who inquire about this condition. In the event they have additional questions or concerns, please advise them to contact Customer Assistance at the numbers listed below for further information.

And there you have it. I'm going to save that in my "issues" folder even though it's for GM's "Duramax" Diesel engines. I have a feeling this is similar because both the F-350 6.2L Gas and F-350 6.7L PowerStroke make the same darn noises and it sounds a heck of a lot like the "BBQ Ignitor Tick" in the 5.0's. Sure, some 5.0s do indeed have actual problems, but many of them don't like Scotty's, mine and many others who have it to varying degrees (some much louder than others).

Generally I would wager that if TriboTEX, CeraTec or Archoil don't quiet the noise it's like an actual issue. But if the symtoms go away with using one of those and stay away over the service life interval (30k for CeraTec / Archoil and 40k for TriboTEX) I'd wager there's no mechanical issues present.

 

[careature]

"This condition has been present in diesel engines produced for the last 20 or more years."

Ford cannot use it as an excuse for petrol engines.

 

[HermanGerman]

And there you have it. I'm going to save that in my "issues" folder. I have a feeling this is similar because both the F-350 6.2L Gas and F-350 6.7L PowerStroke make the same darn noises and it sounds a heck of a lot like the "BBQ Ignitor Tick" in the 5.0's. Sure, some 5.0s do indeed have actual problems, but many of them don't like Scotty's, mine and many others who have it to varying degrees (some much louder than others).

i really follow your thoughts with sympathy and i also can not believe, that a additiv like cery tech can HEAL a broken motor. i have 9012km on mine. i have the tick since my car had 2000km on the clock. and i use the car almost every day. in this time i made some very fast turns on the autobahn. exellerating from 100kmh to 240kmh as fast as my Mustang could. i took some jaguars out and last week a had a little shoot out with a 450HP M4. the BMW could not outrun me. I could not outrun the M4. it was pretty equal on the autobahn. in that race the Coyote engine in front of me was screaming like a madman, running around with a chainsaw. the coyote gave me everything he had and asked for more.
the mustang should have been dead by now, if the engine would be bad. right?

 

[HermanGerman]

"This condition has been present in diesel engines produced for the last 20 or more years."

Ford cannot use it as an excuse for petrol engines.

you are right sir. it is surely bad behaviour by ford. but that does not help me with my sorrows. i for my part own a very exotic american car here. and my possibilities are limited. i have warranty for 2 years and thats that. if i let german part changers play with my mustang i will never get it back in the same condition as it is now. in the usa you have endless possibilities to change dealers and almoust in every town is a guy who worked on a v8 before. here ? we have the Mustang in europe since 2014. there are some very good dealers in the country. but it is like you own a lamborghini in the states. you need to find a guy who knows a thing or two about US engeneering. well in every german village you can get your VW or mercedes fixed

 

[TheLion]

i really follow your thoughts with sympathy and i also can not believe, that a additiv like cery tech can HEAL a broken motor. i have 9012km on mine. i have the tick since my car had 2000km on the clock. and i use the car almost every day. in this time i made some very fast turns on the autobahn. exellerating from 100kmh to 240kmh as fast as my Mustang could. i took some jaguars out and last week a had a little shoot out with a 450HP M4. the BMW could not outrun me. I could not outrun the M4. it was pretty equal on the autobahn. in that race the Coyote engine in front of me was screaming like a madman, running around with a chainsaw. the coyote gave me everything he had and asked for more.
the mustang should have been dead by now, if the engine would be bad. right?

@scotty 's 5.0 is a prime example of this. If you listen to his video, he has the "BBQ Tick" very bad. It's pretty loud. His ticking started at just 5,000 miles. At 12,000 miles he super charged it because he believed the dealership who told him there's nothing wrong with the engine. He is now past 24,000 miles if memory serves correctly and the car has been making over 670 HP for half of that. The ticking has not gotten any worse or better. If the engine was failing, adding another 235 HP and 9 PSI of boost, drag racing with it etc. would have likely caused it to fail in short order.

I believe he recently tried CeraTech and resolved the ticking noise. The addive's won't "fix" a broken engine. But because CeraTech, Archoil and TriboTEX are a new class of lubricants called "surface reconditioners" they can tighten up tolerances that may be causing excessive noises even if it is not harmful an the engine runs fine by creating what's called a "tribofilm" or Diamond Like Coating. Many engines already use a vapor deposited DLC coatings on certain parts to reduce friction. However vapor deposited DLC coatings have a finite life span, so once they wear out there's no way to restore them unless you replace or re-apply it to the part.

With self-repairing tribo films like hBN (it is what CeraTec and Archoil use) or MSH (what TriboTEX uses), they can be applied in-situ by mixing them with the motor oil. Through heat and pressure they self form on the wear areas. It's a much better method than vapor deposited DLC coatings and can be reapplied as needed over the life of the engine and applied to existing engines and not just future designs.

I can attest that TriboTEX has substantially reduced my friction losses because my fuel economy is up about 2-3 mpg consistently on the highway and the engine has quite a bit more torque that I can feel prior to, peak oil temps are also lower as well under similar diriving conditions (lots of high RPM wide open throttle for 5-10 minutes at a time). And I do mean quite noticeable. There are also many dynos now with CeraTec and TriboTEX proving there is about 3-5% power gains typically by reducing friction losses as well as the benefits in noise reduction.

2018's and 2019's use the 3rd generation 5.0. It is more powerful than my 2nd generation 5.0 (stock to stock) and because they now have Direct Injection AND Port Injection instead of just Port Injection like mine, they have a High Pressure Fuel Pump. HPFP's are very noisy and sound erratic, like something is rattling around inside the engine. I've heard some BMW's and Mercedes here in the states with DI sound pretty crappy (very noisy). Unless you get into the expensive models where they go to great efforts to dampen the sounds, it's just something we have to deal with.

Many 2.3L Ecoboost Mustang owners have thought their 2.3L had problems (myself included) after first getting the car because of the noisy HPFP's, but there was nothing wrong. Mine sounded like it was going to fall apart at times, but I got used to it and when I traded it in for the GT, it has 36,000 miles on it already with hard driving and even suffered some of my learning mistakes without any damage. I ran 100% fine and I put out some of the best dyno wheel power numbers over anyone else with a 2.3L TDI Ecoboost and the Ford Performance Power Pack at 315 WHP.

 

[Condor1970]

Lion, are you still running 5w20 oil, or did you also switch to 5w30 with the Tribotex?

I'm thinking of switching to 5w30 Mobil 1 EP, and Ceratech next oil change.

 

[careature]

Lion, are you still running 5w20 oil, or did you also switch to 5w30 with the Tribotex?

I'm thinking of switching to 5w30 Mobil 1 EP, and Ceratech next oil change.

I'm shopping for 5w30 or 5w40 synthetic and will replace oil soon, while my new short block is still new. I mean, 5w20 has destroyed rod bearing for me. I know it. So why give it another chance.

On a parallel note as some other threads mention catalytic converter temperatures for some reason...

All known cases at the forum mention damages on engine area in the end of the engine. Mine was 4th cyl. for example.

So could it be that converters overheat end of the engine block and that is the area that gives up? They are in the end and on both sides of the engine.

Simple heat shield can help.

 

[scotty]

@scotty 's 5.0 is a prime example of this. If you listen to his video, he has the "BBQ Tick" very bad. It's pretty loud. His ticking started at just 5,000 miles. At 12,000 miles he super charged it because he believed the dealership who told him there's nothing wrong with the engine. He is now past 24,000 miles if memory serves correctly and the car has been making over 670 HP for half of that. The ticking has not gotten any worse or better. If the engine was failing, adding another 235 HP and 9 PSI of boost, drag racing with it etc. would have likely caused it to fail in short order.

I believe he recently tried CeraTech and resolved the ticking noise. The addive's won't "fix" a broken engine. But because CeraTech, Archoil and TriboTEX are a new class of lubricants called "surface reconditioners" they can tighten up tolerances that may be causing excessive noises even if it is not harmful an the engine runs fine by creating what's called a "tribofilm" or Diamond Like Coating. Many engines already use a vapor deposited DLC coatings on certain parts to reduce friction. However vapor deposited DLC coatings have a finite life span, so once they wear out there's no way to restore them unless you replace or re-apply it to the part.

With self-repairing tribo films like hBN (it is what CeraTec and Archoil use) or MSH (what TriboTEX uses), they can be applied in-situ by mixing them with the motor oil. Through heat and pressure they self form on the wear areas. It's a much better method than vapor deposited DLC coatings and can be reapplied as needed over the life of the engine and applied to existing engines and not just future designs.

I can attest that TriboTEX has substantially reduced my friction losses because my fuel economy is up about 2-3 mpg consistently on the highway and the engine has quite a bit more torque that I can feel prior to, peak oil temps are also lower as well under similar diriving conditions (lots of high RPM wide open throttle for 5-10 minutes at a time). And I do mean quite noticeable. There are also many dynos now with CeraTec and TriboTEX proving there is about 3-5% power gains typically by reducing friction losses as well as the benefits in noise reduction.

2018's and 2019's use the 3rd generation 5.0. It is more powerful than my 2nd generation 5.0 (stock to stock) and because they now have Direct Injection AND Port Injection instead of just Port Injection like mine, they have a High Pressure Fuel Pump. HPFP's are very noisy and sound erratic, like something is rattling around inside the engine. I've heard some BMW's and Mercedes here in the states with DI sound pretty crappy (very noisy). Unless you get into the expensive models where they go to great efforts to dampen the sounds, it's just something we have to deal with.

Many 2.3L Ecoboost Mustang owners have thought their 2.3L had problems (myself included) after first getting the car because of the noisy HPFP's, but there was nothing wrong. Mine sounded like it was going to fall apart at times, but I got used to it and when I traded it in for the GT, it has 36,000 miles on it already with hard driving and even suffered some of my learning mistakes without any damage. I ran 100% fine and I put out some of the best dyno wheel power numbers over anyone else with a 2.3L TDI Ecoboost and the Ford Performance Power Pack at 315 WHP.

I didn't post a video of mine, but everything else you say is correct.
Now at about 42,000kms with about 3000-4000km on the current oil change w/ Ceratec. No real measurable gains in fuel economy, as I get on it pretty often... but like you @TheLion, my butt dyno is definitely detecting a little bit of extra oomph in the low to mid rpm range. Not only that, the engine is so quiet while running now that if it wasn't for my catback exhaust, you would be hard pressed to tell if the car was running with the doors closed and windows up. No more of that usual clatter you would hear from the valvetrain - my 47lb/hr injectors are the loudest thing under the hood now, lol. I'll continue adding a bottle with every oil change going forward. However, I am interested to see if the tick comes back after the next oil change before re-adding Ceratec - put that 30,000 mile claim to the test.

 

[HermanGerman]

thanks again @TheLion for answering all the questions we throw at you. @DrGrabster I was happy to help and cheers to England John I am also active on the german mustang forum. the germans started to disscuss the bbq ticking about two months ago. i asked around about the ticking from time to time starting in june. now finally the problem is known and they talk about it. funny how equal germans and americans deal with that. some instantly go to the dealers and make much noise and get a shortblock. ( and some of the some have the ticking again on their second motor , beeing unhappy with the Car and cursing bad Quality.) some just dont care because they running on a wider 7 year warranty they bought from ford. (for 1100 Euro). some complain a lot but dont take the step to bring it to the dealer. they also dont use cera tech because they are afraid of loosing the warranty. some read a lot , like me and try to get to the bottom of it. I am as far as i know the first of the germans who used cera tech and enyoing it because it runs well. i told them about the us forum and shared many infos from this board. we´ll see if some of the germans will use cera tech. lets stay in contact and enjoy our Mustangs. you all have a nice Weekend !

 

[Jetnoise]

If you study oil tribology, some additives in oil take many miles to activate with heat and coat surfaces. When an oil change is done, the new oil can strip some of those coatings. That could be why the BBQ tick shows up right after an oil change and slowly gets better with miles. Also, adding something like Cera Tec (anti-friction additive) has made the BBQ tick completely disappear on many member's cars.

Valvoline has some moly in it, which might help. Another reason I'm going with it.

I wonder if the thermal properties of an all aluminum engine have anything to do with it.....

 

[NastyPumpkin]

Would like to share my info from Ford powertrain engineering on the BBQ tick (the random metallic tick at bottom end at idle - Typewriter nosie). From my understanding they dont know what exactly causes the issue on the 5.0, with some engines the oil is forming tiny air bubbles and popping like bubble wrap when getting hit. This is the same tick issue that they had on the diesel engine for 11 years (TSB 46407), which they just solved (I think) last year by re-designing the oil pump. I have been told by egineering there is no durability issue with this BBQ tick, they call it typewiter nosie. Was told by changing to different oil, weight ect... can stop it. Also mixing a teaspoon of a very fine carbon powder that is an ingredient in womens make-up, in a half quart of oil. And pouring it in will stop air bubbles forming instantly, no more tick. I will have this ingredient tomorrow and trying it, on my engine.

 

[Condor1970]

So, according to Ford, it is some form of cavitation then. Weird.

The idea of adding a small amount of carbon makes sense, and correlates with the tick going away after your oil starts to age, as carbon deposits slowly build up after a fresh oil change .
My guess would be, the higher quality oil your using, like Mobil 1 EP, may prolong the noise between oil changes, and Pennzoil Platinum having a lower sheer strength, may cause carbon deposits to build up much quicker. Plus, it's also possible that Penn UP has a little more Moly, and maybe the Moly powder additive also helps prevent this cavitation.
One thing I've heard, is that in Europe, there is very little complaint of the BBQ tick. Their standard is 5w30 for this engine. Also, LiquidMoly Oil is very common in Europe, and tons use it. It could be that Moly additive is similar in changing the cavitation properties of oil. Just my $0.02.

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