BBQ Tick After Oil Change...

[accel]

My GT has bbq tick from the beginning (before the first oil change). I attributed it to a clutch/drivetrain/clunky mt initially, was tightening wheels, wheel hubs etc. but after reading this thread can reproduce the ticking while staying in neutral next to somethi g sound reflecting, by playing with rpms in the 1500-2000 range.

I can also hear it inside the cabin (even with windows up) while accelerating from the stop when rpms are below 1500 first and second gears.

That usually happens when the engine is not completely warmed up. Once the engine is completely warm and was driven for a while the chances are much less, but still randomly possible.

Argh.. will probably schedule an appointment. Since I can reproduce it I better document it.

If they will say their "that's normal' I'll use that liqui moly additive and sell the car eventually.

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[TheLion]

How many miles do you have on the car? Also has it gotten worse or no?

 

[TheLion]

So far most have very low mileage. There's only one car that I've found with higher mileage, 40k miles, his issue just started. He ran Amsoil XL 5W-20 oil and a Wix filter. Not sure if that has any bearing on it or not. But he's about the only one with higher mileage and this issue. Most others are very low miles (under 10k usually).

 

[accel]

How many miles do you have on the car? Also has it gotten worse or no?

Around 8k miles. Oil is now Mobil 1 5w20. No change to ticking due to oil.

And no mods other than catback.

I can't say whether it got worse or not.... For now I'd say it is the same. But will pay closer attention from now on.

 

[TheLion]

I'm running Mobil 1 5W-20 Advanced Synthetic as well (about 250 miles on the Mobil 1). So far I've only used MC 5W-20 Semi-syn (changed at 5,600 miles and 10,000 miles), Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 (changed at 15,000 miles) and now Mobil 1 (changed at 20k miles).

Both Mobil 1 and Penzoil Ultra Platinum meet ford's OE spec for 5W-20, I was sure to check that just in case, one less leg for the dealer to stand on. I've used the FL500-S OE filter with every oil change due to the anti-drain back valve which most after market filters lack, again another variable removed and a safe bet. For $7 a filter, you can't go wrong, made in the USA surprisingly as well.

I can absolutely say that all mechanical noise in the engine is more pronounced with both full synthetics than it is with MC 5W-20 Semi-syn, however MC doesn't make any ticking or tapping types noises go away, they just quiet down a bit. Also it's clankier on hotter days, especially after stop and go or hard driving.

As for performance, I can definitely tell that the 5.0 revs more freely with either synthetic I've used (Mobil 1 and Penzoil). It's fairly noticeable and I also get slightly better fuel economy on either synthetic, about 0.5 to 1 mpg better on average over MC semi-syn. Between the Power Pack 2 and synthetic oil my highway average is up to 25 from around 22~23 at 75~77 mph. That's pretty darn good considering I have a 3.73 gear Performance Package GT and 275 tires out back.

But your just one more case of very low mileage car with a tick. There is only one car over the infant mortality range that just started with a ticking. He is in the 40k mile range, but has not used the OE filter, but does run a good oil (Amsoil Signature Series). I don't know if Amsoil Signature Series was ever tested to meet the Ford spec, Amsoil is natorious for saying "we don't care about certifications"....he also runs a non OE filter (WIX, a good brand, but not sure if they meet OE spec with anti-drain back valve).

 

[GT Pony]

As I said before, these noises also seems to quiet down after the oil has around 3k-5k miles on it and starts to thicken up a bit.

Motor oil typically thins down with use because it shears and gets some level of fuel dilution. The only way it can thicken up is if the Noack is very high and the volatile components evaporator out of the oil. Most good quality motor oils have a decent Noack. Every UOA I've seen shows that the oil viscosity has decreased with use from shearing.

I'm very skeptical that an additive can solve side to side clearance issues on the bottom end. Additives don't cure major defects that usually result in bearing failures rather quickly. Excessive side to side clearance would cause loss of oil pressure in the bearing and result in a spun bearing. The oil won't be pressurized if there's too much clearance between the crank shaft divisions. It's like squirting oil out of a hose vs. pushing it through a straw. Your going to have much lower pressure in the hose than in the straw. That's the principle of hydraulics and crank bearings are hydraulic in nature, they do NOT rely in film strength of the oil like cam lobes or valve guides or timing chains etc. Enough oil pressure is required or the bearing collapses and you have metal on metal that causes failure extremely rapidly.

The additive seems to be working for people. Pretty hard to dispute the tick disappearing almost instantly after putting the additive in. I still believe the tick is cased by excessive clearance someplace. I think the rod side clearance should be looked at more in depth on the cars that tick badly. The additive most likely "cushions" the parts better which takes the ticking noise away.

Excessive rod side clearance will not effect the oil flow through the journal bearing. Google it and you'll find all kinds of discussions about that. The bearing clearance is the "choke point" of the oil flow through the bearing, not the side clearance unless it was basically zero.

And journal bearings certainly do rely on the film strength of the oil (ie, the shear strength of the oil film, aka HTHS). Google 'journal bearing minimum oil film thickness' and read up on how journal bearings actually work and what it takes to prevent damage to them while running. Thicker oil provides a thicker MOFT and therefore will give added protection through the film thickness inside the bearing while running. Oil pressure doesn't prevent the bearing from "collapsing" ... oil pressure is only an indication of how hard the oil is to push it through a restriction. If enough oil volume is supplied to parts even at 2 PSI, they will still have the protection due to the hydraulics of the oil itself.

 

[TheLion]

Apply 100 PSI to 5W-20 and 100 PSI to 5W-30 through the same orifice size. Your flow rates for 5W-20 will be higher. Period. Viscosity absolutely effects flow rates. Also rod bearings are hydrodynamic. They use the rapid rotating motion of the bearing to create hydraulic pressure. There is oil film on both sides of the bearing and the high velocity motion creates hydraulic pressure.

All hydrodynamic bearings also require external oiling source to provide cooling. If you don't cycle the oil through fast enough it will burn up and cause the bearing to over heat / gall. If your not outside the safe temperature range, running a heavier oil viscosity reduces flow rates. The oil pump generates relatively close to the same pressure regardless of oil viscosity, but how much it flows depends on the viscosity. That's why hammering it on cold starts causes drastic increase in engine wear. The oil film is still on the metal surfaces, but you can't cycle the oil through fast enough and you get localized heating and hence metal on metal contact at some point as the oil burns up and the bearing looses hydrodynamic lubrication. That contact eventually opens up the clearances more, reducing flow rates even further and eventually the bearing fails completely.

So maybe we disagree because of terms and are saying the same thing. Yes, rod bearings use oil film, but it's thick film lubrication that generates hydraulic pressure due to motion, not boundary layer lubrication like the cam lobes, chain or other non-high pressure areas. What you have is multiple film layers converging over one another. So it more or less generates hydraulic pressure. It's a fluid bearing with absolutely no metal to metal contact. Since fluids are virtually incomprehensible it keeps things in check. However the fluid can boil off and loose it's hydraulic properties due to excessive heat, so you have to cycle it though fast enough to avoid over heating.

Here is some info on boundary layer lubrication: http://www.me.utexas.edu/~bryant/courses/me383s/DownloadFiles/LectureNotes/BoundaryLubrication.pdf

That's why all bearing surfaces will have some wear lines, even rod bearings that aren't burned up. Until hydrodynamic lubrication starts, they are relying on boundary layer lubrication. Cam lobes, timing chains etc always rely on boundary layer lubrication and do go into hydrodynamic lubrication to my knowledge.

I could see the additive thickening the oil and causing it to act more like a hydraulic cushion or possibly enhancing it's hydrodynamic properties as well as it's boundary layer properties (a single film layer as opposed to multiple opposing film layers moving past one another to generate hydraulic pressure).

My only concern would be long term effects, are we silencing the noise at the cost of engine wear or even loss of power? Higher viscosity oils simply take more energy to move. If you want to flow 1L of oil, lower viscosity requires less energy. More and more modern race cars, and I"m talking actual off-road race cars are moving to thinner viscosity oils and tighter tolerances to increase power output.

Good point on the bearing side clearance, the smaller orifice will be the determining factor, not the larger one. So I could see how excessive side clearance could cause intermittent or random knocking or tapping / ticking sounds. I would imagine however it's relatively harmless as there is little to no side load. That might explain why so many 6.2L diesles tick quite loudly but run 200k without any bottom end issues. There's several 2011-2014 GT's and Boss 302's also with BBQ tick that have in the 50k to 75k miles range now without any functional problems. They just make that ticking / tapping sound but otherwise work fine.

Some of these extreme examples of ticking however are absolutely spun bearings and not side clearance issues, listen to this one: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/yet-another-bbq-tick-thread-2017-gt-base.108226/

The frequency of the noise increases dramatically with RPM as does it's intensity. Even thought the noise does sound like the BBQ Tick, I do not believe that is the same issue. My money is on rod bearing or wrist pin bearing.

The 2000 rpm rattle issues are piston related. So that leaves the case of the intermittent BBQ tick that doesn't seem to change with RPM or fades away with increased RPM and that I believe could be side clearance or possibly valve train tapping. Stainless steel headers are not good at dampening valve train noise, not like cast headers are.

Hydrodynamic Bearing Properties:

• Hydrodynamic lubrication – characteristics:

1. Fluid film at the point of minimum thickness decreases in thickness as the load increases
2. Pressure within the fluid mass increases as the film thickness decreases due to load
3. Pressure within the fluid mass is greatest at some point approaching minimum clearance and lowest at the point of maximum clearance (due to divergence)
4. Viscosity increases as pressure increases (more resistance to shear)
5. Film thickness at the point of minimum clearance increases with the use of more viscous fluids
6. With same load, the pressure increases as the viscosity of fluid increases
7. With a given load and fluid, the thickness of the film will increase as speed is increased
8. Fluid friction increases as the viscosity of the lubricant becomes greater

• Hydrodynamic condition – Fluid velocity:

1. Fluid velocity depends on velocity of the journal or rider
2. Increase in relative velocity tends towards a decrease in eccentricity of journal bearing centers
3. This is accompanied by greater minimum film thickness

• Hydrodynamic condition – Load:

1. Increase in load decreases minimum film thickness
2. Also increases pressure within the film mass to provide a counteracting force
3. Pressure acts in all directions, hence it tends to squeeze the oil out of the ends of the bearing
4. Increase in pressure increases fluid viscosity

• Bearing characteristic number:

Since viscosity, velocity, and load determine the characteristics of a hydrodynamic condition, a bearing characteristic number was developed based on the effects of these on film thickness.
Increase in velocity increases min. film thickness
Increase in viscosity increases min. film thickness
Increase in load decreases min. film thickness

 

[GT Pony]

Also regarding viscosity, 5W-30 is specified for Australian cars because of the climate. They don't have 0F winters like we do in most states in North America. And their average temperatures are higher. Thicker oils don't lubricate better than thinner oils. It's about maintaining proper oil pressure.

It's specific to Australia because Ford knows the oil temperatures there due to the hotter climate can thin down the oil more. Thicker oil always protects better (gives a greater MOFT) than thinner oils. Oil pressure has nothing to do with it, it has to do with the minimum oil film thickness in the bearings as a function of oil viscosity at temperature.

Since they don't see very cold temperatures, they can get away with running a slightly higher viscosity oil. If you live in Texas for example, it might make sense to run 5W-30 if you can get Ford's approval that it won't void your warranty. NEITHER do we know if the 5.0's made in Austraila are made to the same clearances.

If someone here from Australia has access the the service manual can tell us what the rod and crank bearing clearances are on Australian S550s, I'll bet it is no different than every S550 regardless of what market it was make for.

A thinner oil will produce the same viscosity at a lower temperature as a thicker oil will produce at a higher temperature.

That's right ... and exactly why a thicker oil will protect bearings better, and why Ford has specified 5W-30 for that hot climate of Australia. All this has been discussed for years on BITOG, and there have been many examples of owner's manuals posted from other countries (Asia, Australia, etc where it's hot - and no CAFE rules) that show the manufacturer specified oil viscosity anywhere from 0W-20 all the way up to 20W-50 for the same engine.

I don't think running 5W-30 in NA is a wise idea, especially in winter. It's a good way to wear you cam lobes down fast or cause oil starvation in the rod bearings. Too thick of an oil can cause inadequate flow rates, this the oil used to lubricate that part will "dwell" there for too long, over heat and loose it's ability to lubricate (cam lobes, valve guides,timing chains etc.) or loose pressure (crank bearings). That will cause rapid wear and possibly catastrophic failure. Also higher viscosity oils increase pumping losses (assuming the same temperature) = less power. There's a proper application for higher viscosity oils, but I don't think the BBQ tick is one of them unless your racing on a track or live in an unusually hot climate.

A 5W-20 and a 5W-30 both have the same winter viscosity rating ... 5W. Engines use a positive displacement oil pump, so if the oil is a hair thicker it will still get pumped to the lubricated areas of the engine. Now if you ran 20W-50 in Alaska when it was -25 F then obviously there could be a lubrication issue. But running 5W-20 vs 5W-30 in most of NA isn't going to make any real difference in cold start-ups.

And I will agree and say that if someone is experiencing a bad BBQ Tick that switching from 5W-20 to 5W-30 probably isn't going to make much difference dependent on the severity of the tick.

 

[GT Pony]

I've used the FL500-S OE filter with every oil change due to the anti-drain back valve which most after market filters lack, again another variable removed and a safe bet. For $7 a filter, you can't go wrong, made in the USA surprisingly as well.

....he also runs a non OE filter (WIX, a good brand, but not sure if they meet OE spec with anti-drain back valve).

Every aftermarket oil filter I've seen specified for the Coyote has an ADBV. Which ones don't? Yes, WIX has the ADBV.

 

[GT Pony]

Apply 100 PSI to 5W-20 and 100 PSI to 5W-30 through the same orifice size. Your flow rates for 5W-20 will be higher. Period. Viscosity absolutely effects flow rates.

Engines use a positive displacement oil pump. When you understand how a PD oil pump works, then you'll realize that the oil volume leaving the pump is not a "pressure source" like your example. It's a positive volumetric source (X volume per revolution of the engine) - not a water faucet on the side of a house like your example would explain. So when you run a thicker oil the same volume is being forced through the system and the pressure will increase because of the higher viscosity. So viscosity doesn't affect flow rate in a PD oil pumped oiling system. Only time it would is if the pump was in pressure relief and that is when it becomes a fixed pressure source of flow.

Also rod bearings are hydrodynamic. They use the rapid rotating motion of the bearing to create hydraulic pressure. All hydrodynamic bearings require external oiling source to provide cooling. If you don't cycle the oil through fast enough it will burn up and cause the bearing to over heat. If your not outside the safe temperature range, running a heavier oil viscosity reduces flow rates. Pump generates approximately the same pressure regardless of oil, but how much it flows depends on the viscosity.

Journal bearings will naturally flow oil volume if they are simply supplied a constant source of oil ... that's the very nature of their operation. Adding supply pressure on top of that does increase the flow through the bearing and will help add cooling, but the oil supply pressure really doesn't increase the load carrying capability of the bearing to any extent at all. If the bearing is designed correctly, the flow through it will be adequate just from it's natural hydrodynamic flow to keep the temperature at a safe level. Engine RPM is the main contributor to heating up oil inside the bearing due to shearing the oil. Running the engine at continuous high RPM (like in track use) will heat the oil and thin it down, which caused the minimum oil film thickness in the bearing to get smaller and smaller the hotter the oil gets. That's why Ford and everyone else recommends a thicker oil for track use or for extremely not climates. It goes more MOFT at hotter temperatures and therefore protects the bearing more from damage. I will say that if someone is just a normal street driver that a good 5W-20 will protect the bearings, but running a 5W-30 is still going to give added protection above that. Are you a BITOG reader? If not, go hang out there for a bit and you'll see the same stuff talked about all the time.

The 2000 rpm rattle issues are piston related. So that leaves the case of the intermittent BBQ tick that doesn't seem to change with RPM or fades away with increased RPM and that I believe could be side clearance or possibly valve train tapping. Stainless steel headers are not good at dampening valve train noise, not like cast headers are.

I agree that the 2000 RPM rattle that the 2018+ guys are hearing isn't the BBQ Tick. But seems the 2018+ can experience both noises from what I've read here so far.

 

[TheLion]

I don't believe Fram does, it's a very popular brand. But we agree on the fact that using 5W-30 isn't going to help with ticking. So if that's the case, then the Aussie guys oil viscosity has nothing to do with it. Yes they spec a thicker oil because of higher temperatures. 5W-30 provides better protection up top, but it also incurs higher pumping losses = less power. Ultimately it doesn't really seem relevant however as 5W-30 makes almost no difference.

So regardless of this, 5W-30 isn't going to solve the problem and it's not necessarily the 5W-20 viscosity that IS the problem. The real question is, is it design related or is it manufacturing related? Is it bottom end or top end? I think your theory on the bearing side clearance is a good possibility, but the problem is we don't have a single piece of evidence that's the cause other than one youtube video which doesn't give us any idea of how much clearance is actually there. 0.5 mm is quite a bit and you'd be surprised at how much motion two objects appear to have on camera with even a 0.5 mm clearance.

That to me would indicate either the rods are made incorrectly (width) or the crank is being machined incorrectly. 0.5 mm (20 mils) is HUGE by today's machining standards. Standard machining is +/-5 mils (0.127 mm)....fine machining, the next step up is +/-1 mil (0.0254 mm). So fine machining gives a tolerance that is 1/20th of the max spec....you'd have to have a pretty incompetent supplier to have trouble meeting typical fine machining tolerances today. And there are 5 grades beyond that: https://www.cnccookbook.com/the-high-cost-of-tight-tolerances/

I'm very skeptical it's out of tolerance stock just because of today's mfg. capabilities and what tolerances are commonly used. Not until you get into the really fine stuff does the price go sky high and certainly on critical parts tighter tolerances will be used.

So I'm not seeing from a manufacturing standpoint why it would even be likely to be out of tolerance. Maybe material quality defect allowing for deformation? Rods are cast, but also machined to size, especially bearing surfaces, so I'd find it hard to believe even those are that far out of tolerance. Make then a tad big, then machine them down. Only way they would likely be too small is if the casting was undersized and then after machining they are out of spec.

 

[GT Pony]

Hydrodynamic Bearing Properties:

• Hydrodynamic lubrication – characteristics:

1. Fluid film at the point of minimum thickness decreases in thickness as the load increases
2. Pressure within the fluid mass increases as the film thickness decreases due to load
3. Pressure within the fluid mass is greatest at some point approaching minimum clearance and lowest at the point of maximum clearance (due to divergence)
4. Viscosity increases as pressure increases (more resistance to shear)
5. Film thickness at the point of minimum clearance increases with the use of more viscous fluids
6. With same load, the pressure increases as the viscosity of fluid increases
7. With a given load and fluid, the thickness of the film will increase as speed is increased
8. Fluid friction increases as the viscosity of the lubricant becomes greater

Keep in mind they are talking about what's going on inside the journal bearing at the hydrodynamic oil wedge. So when they say "pressure" they are talking about the fluid pressure of the thin oil film inside the bearing, not the oil supply pressure from the pump.

Number 5 says that thicker oil gives more MOFT. And you want more MOFT because of numbers 1 and 6. Number 6 says that the there is more hydrodynamic MOFT film pressure to keep the parts separated if the oil is more viscous.

Also, number 7 says that "lugging" an engine at low RPM and with lots of engine load is very bad as it makes the MOFT go down as indicated in number 1.

 

[GT Pony]

I don't believe Fram does, it's a very popular brand.

Sure it does ... go to Fram's website and look for your car. Maybe some obscure off-brand filter made in China doesn't have an ADBV, but every well known brand does.

But we agree on the fact that using 5W-30 isn't going to help with ticking. So if that's the case, then the Aussie guys oil viscosity has nothing to do with it.

Could be damage is done early with the thinner oil, and once damage is done you can't fix it with thicker oil. Nobody really knows for sure.

Yes they spec a thicker oil because of higher temperatures. 5W-30 provides better protection up top, but it also incurs higher pumping losses = less power. Ultimately it doesn't really seem relevant however as 5W-30 makes almost no difference.

Yep, pumping difference between 5W-20 and 5W-30 is nill since they are both "5W". Using a "0W-x" would show a good difference in cold pumping. So yes, 5W-30 gives more protection when hot as already discussed about how thicker oil provides more MOFT ... which is the only thing that keeps bearings from metal-to-metal contact and damage.

So regardless of this, 5W-30 isn't going to solve the problem and it's not necessarily the 5W-20 viscosity that IS the problem. The real question is, is it design related or is it manufacturing related? Is it bottom end or top end? I think your theory on the bearing side clearance is a good possibility, but the problem is we don't have a single piece of evidence that's the cause other than one youtube video which doesn't give us any idea of how much clearance is actually there. 0.5 mm is quite a bit and you'd be surprised at how much motion two objects appear to have on camera with even a 0.5 mm clearance.

That to me would indicate either the rods are made incorrectly (width) or the crank is being machined incorrectly. 0.5 mm (20 mils) is HUGE by today's machining standards. Standard machining is +/-5 mils (0.127 mm)....fine machining, the next step up is +/-1 mil (0.0254 mm). So fine machining gives a tolerance that is 1/20th of the max spec....you'd have to have a pretty incompetent supplier to have trouble meeting typical fine machining tolerances today. And there are 5 grades beyond that: https://www.cnccookbook.com/the-high-cost-of-tight-tolerances/

I'm very skeptical it's out of tolerance stock just because of today's mfg. capabilities and what tolerances are commonly used.
So I'm not seeing from a manufacturing standpoint why it would even be likely to be out of tolerance. Maybe material quality defect allowing for deformation? Rods are cast, but also machined to size, especially bearing surfaces, so I'd find it hard to believe even those are that far out of tolerance. Make then a tad big, then machine them down. Only way they would likely be too small is if the casting was undersized and then after machining they are out of spec.

Remember, humans are controlling these machines ... therefore human error is always possible and if it's a manufacturing issue it will most likely be caused by human error. Like I've said before, a car manufacturing company can have the best drawings and specifications in the world, but if manufacturing doesn't follow and meet those specs then quality problems can occur and issues stem from that. There are instances when the design is faulty, but most of the time it's a manufacturing problem.

Ford has been replacing short blocks because of the BBQ Tick, and that's been happening in some cases even if the shop has not tore into the engine to find the root cause. I think Ford knows what the cause is, and it's definitely in the bottom end (rods/crankshaft/maybe pistons) ... therefore short block replacement.

 

[Kong76]

I have two videos to show the dealer. Same as the rest of you. Happens after oil change, only on hot engine, sporadic loud tick that increases in speed but still sporadic with a light load.

 

[CEHollier]

I have two videos to show the dealer. Same as the rest of you. Happens after oil change, only on hot engine, sporadic loud tick that increases in speed but still sporadic with a light load.

How many miles?

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