Automatic or Manual

[EmCel]

what was your previous auto though? what year car I mean. does make a significant difference, the current A10s vs something from a fox, SN, etc. I never drove an auto S197, only drove an 07 gt500, but im sure the autos were nothing like the current autos. that being said, if i didnt have a manual in my 95, i would have gotten a manual instead of an auto in the '19

It was the same year 16 gt

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[Bobn57]

id take the chevelle any day. even if an ecoboost would be faster or carve corners better, you cant deny the cool/fun factor.

lots of respect for the muscle car era.....i was hooked on 70 Chevelle SS, 396 as well before I got my license.

 

[19BULLITTwhipple]

Auto is much faster with bolt ons than the manual. But I love my manual.

 

[331GT]

lots of respect for the muscle car era.....i was hooked on 70 Chevelle SS, 396 as well before I got my license.

always been my favorite cars. i always wanted a 67-69 fastback. wanted to buy one when i was 16 but anything in my price range needed way too much work for me to handle. ended up with my 95 gt with 98k on it instead ha. the s550 is superior in every way, but i kind of like how even the 95 feels "old school" at least relatively speaking. tech has just come that far in that amount of time.

 

[Norm Peterson]

And for the topic of someone else's logic, what about throttle response settings, all controlled by a chip, and tunes that can affect that? It's all someone else's logic.

I meant to mention that some of my "tuning efforts" have gotten into the realm of what we're now calling "modes". Like a cable throttle rearrangement to slow down tip-in response for improved drivability (the EFI). Or a little jet needle recontouring (Q-jet) before that to smooth out part throttle response. Big response off idle and feeling step changes in power delivery just aren't my things, so it was no big deal to lose easy ability to return to we'd be calling "Sport+" or whatever.


Norm

 

[Arthonon]

Fair warning about opening worm cans . . .


I've always made exception for technologies that handle things that a human driver cannot keep up with in real time. Mainly, this is engine fueling and ignition. Keep in mind that even in my carburetor and points/condenser distributor days all that stuff was still hands-off while you were driving, with only relatively coarse adjustments possible. I also have a little experience tuning multiport EFI (laptop required), and I'll take that over carbs and distributors every time.

Unfortunately, I don't see myself having that extensive of a build-up left in me. There's a health issue involved.

I am sorry to hear you are having health issues that prevent you from doing a build up, if that's something you'd want to do.

Continuing the conversation, even though it's probably getting too cumbersome at this point...

I've said this before as well, but it's all personal preference. Some people like to do woodworking and build their own table, even if they could buy one better than they could build, and I am sure there are similar discussions going on in those forums about power tools not being as much fun to use . Sometimes it's just more fun or more interesting to do something yourself, but everyone picks to what degree they want.

My point with those other devices is, you are already living with a lot of stuff that someone else decided, and really, even with the transmission. Look at the comments here about dealing with some of the issues of the MT-82, and how the gearing changed from 2017 to 2018 - someone else's shift logic is being imposed on you regardless, and it requires people to adjust to that.

I've looked into the DSC controller, even downloaded the user manual to take a peek at what might be "under the hood", so to speak. ABS doesn't get everything right, either. I've lost the ABS on my '08 at the track, and turned slightly faster laps with the ABS inop (at a slight loss of consistency).

See my point above - you're dealing with other people's driving logic in ways other than the trans anyway, sometimes it helps, sometimes not.

Fair enough, but that's not intentionally coming from me.

Fair enough.

I've addressed this point before, more than once. If I was a podium-potential driver in a wheel to wheel race series where DCTs were legal, I'd run one. More because I'd have to than out of any real want for the device.

As soon as you mention "Ferrari" you're introducing a significant amount of snob appeal, #becausethat'swhatFormula1racecarsuse.

That's related to the "not real drivers" point of view. If you don't feel that way, it probably doesn't apply.

Be a little careful here. DCTs may be excellent when racing, but there are still complaints about rough shifting in traffic and other street driving scenarios.

This is still related to the driver thing, but the A10 isn't a DCT, so maybe it doesn't have the same issues. It has other issues, of course, but perhaps it is a better balance between street and performance driving.

I've driven at least one paddle-shifted automatic (and a couple of paddle-shifted cars with DCT). The electronic-based shifting still doesn't quite match what I'm expecting. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to such things (I do have an idea where that's coming from, but there isn't any way I know of that would fix it). A +/- gate on the shift lever would work better for me without solving the problem entirely.

Keep in mind that I can rev-match AT downshifts without any electronic help.


Norm

No machine is perfect, and as mentioned above, even manual transmissions require dealing with idiosyncrasies and other people's design decisions - gearing, lock-outs, clutch settings, pedal placement - it's up the driver to adjust to those and get it to do what they want. If you can get the transmission to largely shift how you want it to, it seems like it's doing its job, whether that's a manual or an auto.

Personal preference also plays a role, like if you don't like using paddles. But then, that's not unique to an auto. It could be that a given car's shifter is poorly placed, or the throws are too long, etc., for a particular person - lots of things about any shifter placement may not be to someone's liking, but it doesn't always make it a bad transmission, just not a good fit for a given individual.

I'm not looking to change anyone's mind on what to get or what is best, just trying to point out that just because a person doesn't like something doesn't mean it's bad or functions poorly.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yup, modern jets are built to be dynamically unstable in flight. The computer has to constantly trim the flight surfaces to keep it airborne. As a result, the aircraft can be more maneuverable at speed than it could be with a more traditional design. If the computer was removed, it would actually be unable to fly under human control alone.

Even if you could sacrifice ultimate maneuverability (a really dumb idea, but hear me out), the speeds alone would still be reason enough. Even the early-1950s design Mach2 F104 had at least a primitive form of computer-assisted flight control.

Although there isn't quite as much to fly into up there, everything that might be is coming at you ten or more times as fast as anything you need ever expect in your street driving.

You have to turn everything but the request for your next maneuver over to something that can keep up.


Norm

 

[ORRadtech]

These kinds of questions on an enthusiast fourm are extremely biased for manual transmissions simply by being an enthusiast fourm.
Production numbers indicate that real world sales are heavily weighted toward automatics being far more popular. 2015 production numbers tell a tale and I don't imagine the other years are any different.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I am sorry to hear you are having health issues that prevent you from doing a build up, if that's something you'd want to do.

It is something that I still keep thinking I'd like to do.

I've said this before as well, but it's all personal preference. Some people like to do woodworking and build their own table, even if they could buy one better than they could build, and I am sure there are similar discussions going on in those forums about power tools not being as much fun to use . Sometimes it's just more fun or more interesting to do something yourself, but everyone picks to what degree they want.

I hear you on this . . . it's not just cars that I work on. Over the years I've done all of my own plumbing, most of the electrical work, one roof, two water heater replacements, tile flooring in the powder room, and a kitchen remodel that's also stalled for the time being. Cordless drill and a table saw for accurate cutting of trim and support rails, otherwise all by hand tools.

The new outside-exhaust fan needed a little custom woodwork that just couldn't be done without firing up the table saw

My point with those other devices is, you are already living with a lot of stuff that someone else decided, and really, even with the transmission. Look at the comments here about dealing with some of the issues of the MT-82, and how the gearing changed from 2017 to 2018 - someone else's shift logic is being imposed on you regardless, and it requires people to adjust to that.

I get it, and it's as low as I can hold the "done by others" down. FWIW, I really didn't care for either of the MT82 gearsets just from running the gears/rpms/speeds/rpm drops analysis.

That's related to the "not real drivers" point of view. If you don't feel that way, it probably doesn't apply.

Doesn't apply.

This is still related to the driver thing, but the A10 isn't a DCT, so maybe it doesn't have the same issues. It has other issues, of course, but perhaps it is a better balance between street and performance driving.

I'm pretty much convinced that in a street setting where driver demands vary over a far wider range than they do on the track, a properly engineered conventional automatic is going to be the better fit for almost everybody.

No machine is perfect, and as mentioned above, even manual transmissions require dealing with idiosyncrasies and other people's design decisions - gearing, lock-outs, clutch settings, pedal placement - it's up the driver to adjust to those and get it to do what they want. If you can get the transmission to largely shift how you want it to, it seems like it's doing its job, whether that's a manual or an auto.

True. Then it comes down to how close it shifts to the way you want it to shift. A purely subjective concern that can have no single answer.

I'm not looking to change anyone's mind on what to get or what is best, just trying to point out that just because a person doesn't like something doesn't mean it's bad or functions poorly.

Me either. Just trying to explain a point of view that may not completely agree with anybody else's, including the rest of the current 59% above.

I may shoot you a PM.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

These kinds of questions on an enthusiast fourm are extremely biased for manual transmissions simply by being an enthusiast fourm.
Production numbers indicate that real world sales are heavily weighted toward automatics being far more popular. 2015 production numbers tell a tale and I don't imagine the other years are any different.

This is to be expected.

Those who favor the MT are at risk of having their preference taken away from them, mainly by the way non-enthusiast mainstream sedan/SUV/CUV buyers who wouldn't ever consider trying to drive stick have been equipping their vehicles. That risk attracts more MT participants on a sporty-car forum, and probably more strident responses.


Norm

 

[FinitePrimus]

These kinds of questions on an enthusiast fourm are extremely biased for manual transmissions simply by being an enthusiast fourm.
Production numbers indicate that real world sales are heavily weighted toward automatics being far more popular. 2015 production numbers tell a tale and I don't imagine the other years are any different.

Interesting. This is why many manufacturers move away from manual completely. I always say, you vote with your wallet and sometimes there are too many others voting with their wallets that you miss out. I am still bitter about that HD-DVD vs. BluRay thing.

 

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Manual / How God intended

 

[Bikeman315]

Manual / How God intended

Old testament or new?

 

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Can we please drop the conceit that not driving a manual also precludes you from being an enthusiast? Further, can we also stop assuming that people only choose auto because they can't drive manual?

Auto transmissions have no place in a muscle/sports/pony car. True enthusiasts understand 100%.

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