Alignment issue?

[Coyote 2121]

I had a feeling this would turn out to be simple. Glad everything worked out.

Heck if your friend has a 4 post lift then you can consider a string alignment kit. I just received my Caliper Garage kit which costs less than an alignment at the tire shop. My friend has a lift where we will align our cars. Toe in is our main concern.

That might be above my pay grade!
But can you explain the common issue with the front inside tires wearing bald rather quickly?
Seems like the factory settings had something to do with it.
I want to be able to give the alignment tech a heads up before I ruin $800 worth of tires.

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[GTP]

There are several alignment threads on the forum. They discuss all sorts of issues. I don't know what your time is worth but you could search for particular issues such as inside tire wear. Basically that comes from excessive toe in and or camber.

Many of us prefer very minimal toe in. I run near zero at all four corners. Even a little front toe out on track day.

String alignments are kinda slow and methodical and more precise than laser. They also ensure your car is" square" which is your original complaint.

Regardless, tell your tech that you want the minimum toe in within the spec's range. And make sure to tell him to torque the rear link bolts to 130# and then show you that the numbers didn't drift. The cams are sensitive and can move even during the torque process.

 

[PC_GUARD]

There are several alignment threads on the forum. They discuss all sorts of issues. I don't know what your time is worth but you could search for particular issues such as inside tire wear. Basically that comes from excessive toe in and or camber.

Many of us prefer very minimal toe in. I run near zero at all four corners. Even a little front toe out on track day.

String alignments are kinda slow and methodical and more precise than laser. They also ensure your car is" square" which is your original complaint.

Regardless, tell your tech that you want the minimum toe in within the spec's range. And make sure to tell him to torque the rear link bolts to 130# and then show you that the numbers didn't drift. The cams are sensitive and can move even during the torque process.

I run my car on the street, exclusively. The is ZERO advantage to having ANY toe. I have my setup straight, and have zero tramlining, wondering or any issues. I also picked up about .5 mpg from the reduction in drag.

If I were going to Auto-x or track then i'd go and setup a proper alignment for more or less turn in etc.

I will also add: With the mods to my suspension i have eliminate about 85% of all deflection and jerking the tires around from travel, everything remains pretty straight, other than camber in the rear, cant do much about the design and pulling the tops in when the suspension travels.

 

[Buldawg76]

The purpose of positive toe in on the front wheels is to allow for the compression of the steering components such as tie rod ends and center link ball sockets, so the front tires are at zero toe when traveling at speed since a tire/wheels natural tendency is to roll away from the centerline of the vehicle. In today's cars with rack and pinion steering systems the only thing that can compress is the tie rod ends so you can set the toe in at a much smaller amount as compared to older cars, but if you set it to zero toe as a base setting then at speed you will have a toe out setting that will over time cause some tire wear.

BD

 

[Coyote 2121]

The purpose of positive toe in on the front wheels is to allow for the compression of the steering components such as tie rod ends and center link ball sockets, so the front tires are at zero toe when traveling at speed since a tire/wheels natural tendency is to roll away from the centerline of the vehicle. In today's cars with rack and pinion steering systems the only thing that can compress is the tie rod ends so you can set the toe in at a much smaller amount as compared to older cars, but if you set it to zero toe as a base setting then at speed you will have a toe out setting that will over time cause some tire wear.

BD

Good information, thanks.
What do you have yours set at, and what size tires/wheels?
Any issues from your preference, are your tires wearing evenly in the front?
Thanks again.

 

[Buldawg76]

Good information, thanks.
What do you have yours set at, and what size tires/wheels?
Any issues from your preference, are your tires wearing evenly in the front?
Thanks again.

Here are my alignment settings from after I installed the Steeda stop the hop starter kit (bushing, lockouts and subframe braces) in my eco. I have 255/40/19 squared P zeros that came on the car from the factory, not sure if the wheels are 9 or 9.5 inches wide. No wear issues and car track great with no tramlining at all on grooved roads. Very happy with the settings.

 

[PC_GUARD]

The purpose of positive toe in on the front wheels is to allow for the compression of the steering components such as tie rod ends and center link ball sockets, so the front tires are at zero toe when traveling at speed since a tire/wheels natural tendency is to roll away from the centerline of the vehicle. In today's cars with rack and pinion steering systems the only thing that can compress is the tie rod ends so you can set the toe in at a much smaller amount as compared to older cars, but if you set it to zero toe as a base setting then at speed you will have a toe out setting that will over time cause some tire wear.

BD

You are correct. Even at 0 loaded on the machine it's not an actual 0. I've put on about 2500-3k and my wear pattern on all 4 is great.

I did it as an experiment. I dont think at least with my lowered linear sprung car, get much or any push out, I also run fairly high pressure at 38 lbs, which may also be a factor.

I have a couple more things I'd like to do to the suspension and then I may get more creative.

 

[Buldawg76]

I run my tires at 33 psi cold so when at operating temps they are around 35/36 psi as well.
No wear issues either.

BD

 

[Coyote 2121]

Here are my alignment settings from after I installed the Steeda stop the hop starter kit (bushing, lockouts and subframe braces) in my eco. I have 255/40/19 squared P zeros that came on the car from the factory, not sure if the wheels are 9 or 9.5 inches wide. No wear issues and car track great with no tramlining at all on grooved roads. Very happy with the settings.

Excellent!
Thanks for posting.
Is there a reason the left and right sides are different?
Or is it so miniscule that it doesn't matter?

 

[Coyote 2121]

You are correct. Even at 0 loaded on the machine it's not an actual 0. I've put on about 2500-3k and my wear pattern on all 4 is great.

I did it as an experiment. I dont think at least with my lowered linear sprung car, get much or any push out, I also run fairly high pressure at 38 lbs, which may also be a factor.

I have a couple more things I'd like to do to the suspension and then I may get more creative.

I read somewhere in another thread that running high pressure in your front tires helped mitigate the inside edge wear.
Been running mine at 40psi in the front and 32 rear.
Staggered with 265/40R19 fronts on 9 inch fronts and 285/40R19 on a 10 inch rear wheel.
Factory ride height. Gonna leave it there too. It's nice not having to sweat every driveway and dead possum in the road. The taller tires help fill the gap good enough for me.
Went to my alignment appointment today at 10am, only to be told my appointment was for tomorrow........ Damnit.
Can you tell I'm eager to get it DONE ALREADY.....

 

[Buldawg76]

Excellent!
Thanks for posting.
Is there a reason the left and right sides are different?
Or is it so miniscule that it doesn't matter?

The reason the camber is different from the right to left sides is a direct indication of how straight the chassis is from the factory in terms of upper strut mounting point locations since the camber is a non-adjustable without adding camber plates or camber bolts to adjust to be more even from side to side. Early MacPherson strut suspension on cars used to have some adjustability for the top mounts but over time the manufactures found it was not really needed to have a well handling/driving car so over time the adjustability was phased out and you get what you get. For a car driven mainly on the street having some more negative camber on the right side versus the left helps counter the crown in most roads to keep the car tracking straight against the crown just as having more positive castor in the right than left aids in tracking against the crowns in roads. I would like to see the right side a bit closer to the left but since I do not track my car and it drive perfectly straight on all roads with no hands on the wheel and all specs are in the green, I see no benefit in spending money on camber plate/adjustable arms to correct the camber on the right side. I will admit that my camber number indicate that my car will turn to the left better than to the right due to the added negative camber on the right versus the left, but will I ever really see that added benefit while driving on the street is highly unlikely without ending up in jail or worse.

If tracking a car then it would be very beneficial to add camber plates up front and adjustable camber arms to the rear to be able to dial in the camber that best suits the tracks you race on just as adjusting the toe in/out will help turn in for corners, but that adds weight and constant adjusting for different track conditions/surfaces. It all is depending on what you want/desire from your car.

Hope that helps explain it more to be understandable that it's just not that critical to be exactly the same from side to side.

BD

 

[Buldawg76]

I read somewhere in another thread that running high pressure in your front tires helped mitigate the inside edge wear.
Been running mine at 40psi in the front and 32 rear.
Staggered with 265/40R19 fronts on 9 inch fronts and 285/40R19 on a 10 inch rear wheel.
Factory ride height. Gonna leave it there too. It's nice not having to sweat every driveway and dead possum in the road. The taller tires help fill the gap good enough for me.
Went to my alignment appointment today at 10am, only to be told my appointment was for tomorrow........ Damnit.
Can you tell I'm eager to get it DONE ALREADY.....

Yes, running a higher pressure in the front tires will help mitigate inside wear from toe in but it also will wear the center of the tread out faster since the higher pressure make the tire contact patch more concentrate on the center of tire so eventually you will be wearing both the center and inner edges. I recommend running factory spec pressure on cold tire so at operating temps they will be 2-3 psi above cold temps.

Bummer on the wrong alignment date but it's almost morning so not long now to get it all finished.

BD

 

[galaxy]

@Buldawg76 ...wow, you're a better man than I am. Call it OCD or whatever label you want, no way I could live with nor accept that. Funny part is I don't disagree with your statements and can't aargue you're wrong, but I couldn't do it.

Two rebuttals would be this...you have adjustable camber arms in the rear. There's no reason to leave the camber in the rear like that. I would even argue having that much cross-camber difference in the rear (and most likely in the front as well) is downright visible to the naked eye. That alone would drive me insane and require addressing.

 

[GTP]

@Buldawg76 ...wow, you're a better man than I am. Call it OCD or whatever label you want, no way I could live with nor accept that. Funny part is I don't disagree with your statements and can't aargue you're wrong, but I couldn't do it.

Two rebuttals would be this...you have adjustable camber arms in the rear. There's no reason to leave the camber in the rear like that. I would even argue having that much cross-camber difference in the rear (and most likely in the front as well) is downright visible to the naked eye. That alone would drive me insane and require addressing.

I just ordered one of these off eBay for $12. Clip it to the rotor with the wheel on. Should be accurate enough to check if it agrees with the alignment shop. If not, I'd suspect the shop!

 

[Cory S]

I just ordered one of these off eBay for $12. Clip it to the rotor with the wheel on. Should be accurate enough to check if it agrees with the alignment shop. If not, I'd suspect the shop!

I use a similar model. Got my front and rear camber within .2° of the alignment shops lasers. I don’t need more than -.5° Rear camber (factory was -1.6 and -1.3) . Now I’m at -.3° and -.2° in the rear.

Front was originally -.9° and -1.9°. I set them at -.7 and -.6° with front BMR eccentric camber bolts.

Car handles normal and hooks up even better.

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